Okay, I didn't know where else to put this, so I put it here.
From what I've observed on this forum, we have women come here, and say things like "I'm pregnant, and I don't know what to do, and"
a. abortion is not an option
b. I don't want an abortion
c. I don't think I could handle abortion
d. any other way of saying the above 3 statements.
This results in the very next poster saying "why can't you handle abortion?/why don't you want an abortion?" Which ALWAYS leads to an anti choice or borderline antichoice comment (ie, I'm all for the right to choose, I just don't think I could do it), which leads to the next poster saying "hold up, we're a prochoice site" And oftentimes this leads to arguments with BRAND NEW members as to what's prochoice, what isn't, often causing new posters to leave.
What I'm saying here is, we all know that second anti/borderline anti comment is coming. It's kind of like we're picking the weak ones out of the herd. Only the posters strong enough to handle a callout in the first few days of posting get to stick around.
Now, I see a callout being necessary if a woman says abortion is not an option, it is an option and just as valid as any other, or more blatant anti statements, but if a girl says she just doesn't want an abortion, she doesn't think she can handle it (which leaves me thinking it takes more strength to abort and face all the stigma than she has available to her), or she doesn't think it's the right choice for her, why don't we leave it at that instead of asking her to explain herself, thereby baiting her into saying things we can call her out about? I think in conjuction with this site being safe for women who've had abortions, we also need to be safe for women who want to make a different choice and need support as teen mamas, and not question them as to their reasons. Let them stick around, let them find out through experience here that abortion is a valid choice, necessary for all women and there's nothing wrong with it. Calling them out, that's not going to change their views the way it would happen if they stayed here and unlearned the stigmas associated with abortion.
I know there are quite a few posters here who changed their minds about abortion through the course of posting and reading. Now I'm not saying don't call anyone out just because they're new. Sometimes it's necessary, when they're using language like "I'm prochoice, just not for myself" implying that they hold themselves to a higher standard or something like that. I just don't think we need to call out every single girl who posts that says she doesn't want an abortion, we don't know why she doesn't want one, but the simple fact that she doesn't should be enough. We wouldn't ask a girl to explain why she wants one, we shouldn't ask them to explain why they don't, either.
I don't agree. We've never been rude about it. Most times I've seen it, the people still offer some great advice and welcome them all friendly but throw a quick side note in saying 'just a heads up, that things like that can't be said here'. Which is fine. Considering this is one of the only sites on the net that prides itself on being a complete safe space for women who have had abortions, I don't think we should waver in that.
You talk about how strong it must be, and the stigma attached to abortion, why further that by letting new members bend the rules and pass judgement on the other members who've had it?
We've had this argument here a thousand times with a thousand different people, and GM'd resolve as a 100% pro choice site has never faltered, and I don't think it should.
People aren't being unfriendly, they're still being welcoming, and they're not getting angry at it, they're just giving a friendly reminder not to say such things again.
Plus, who knows? Maybe they're saying it's not an option because 1. they're scared of getting judged here if they ARE considering one, 2. they're unaware of the myths and misconceptions, 3. etc, anyways, what if for these women abortion could very well be the best choice for them? How can we get them to see that it IS a valid choice if we don't nicely remind them that it is? Most women who say 'i couldn't do this', or 'I'd never do that', are saying it not because they think continuing the pregnancy is the best choice for them but because no one has ever told them before that abortion is just as valid a choice, no one has ever shown them that they'll have support no matter what route they choose.
i do agree. if we say that we support all decisions for abortion why are we calling out the girls that are simply saying i dont think i want one or its not for me. we dont ask the women who chose to have abortions why they are having one and then tell them that they are affending the people who would not chose. it is one thing to be pro choice but we have to open to all decisions. As long as the posters who dont want an abortion make any derogatory comments or anti choice comments i see no problem with saying that you dont want an abortion. we are causing girls looking for support to feel just as isolated as the outside world makes them feel for being teen parents when we dont respect THEIR right to chose whats best for them. weather that be abortion or not. not trying to offend but i do see this alot on here lately.
.. how are we disrespecting their choice? Almost everyone on this site has chosen to continue a pregnancy at one point in time, considering most of us are mothers..
Because 'I couldn't mentally handle that', and 'it's just not for me', 'I couldn't possibly do that' ARE derogatory comments because they create judgement.
I'm really not getting the point of this thread. No one was being mean, and most of the women who get called out on it (yet again, NICELY) do stick around.
i agree with naivete. If this is a pro-choice site then when people say anti-choice things then it's going to be addressed. I don't think anyone has been rude about it. It is true that we all know it is coming. If the person is truly pro-choice then they will understand, consider what people have said and move on. If they really don't belive in abortions then there is no place for them here. I think it might be a good thing that it's almost always brought up in the first few posts, that way we avoid it in the future. i dont think we can be a pro-choice site and allow anti-choice comments.
Okay, as a point of clarification: why is saying "I don't want an abortion" anti-choice?
i agree with naivete
when i have read new posts by new members and the "call-outs" I have never thought they they sounded bitchy or unwelcoming. I think that it is important to new members to fully understand that being a member of this community means "you can't say that on this board" - which is totally valid. however i agree that saying "why don't you want to have an abortion?" will definitely lead to things like "i'm pro-choice but not for me " etc...
from my personal experience finding out i was pregnant, i automatically felt like as a young i was SUPPOSED to want to have an abortion, and not continue my pregnancy. I think that this is why new posters often frame their situation in that way, by stating "i don't want to have an abortion" rather than "i'm going to continue my pregnancy." There is so much pressure when you find out your pregnant about what is your best option, and not everyone is %100 up to date with the discourse around choice.
with that said, i think it is important for new young women on this sight to be reminded (maybe they don't even realize yet) that girl-mom is PRO-CHOICE and they are definitely welcome and valued individually, however
isn't acceptable. And from what i have seen, everyone who has mentioned it, has been informative and not pushy, and i know it can be scary or threatening to new posters. but it needs to be mentioned.
heehee glasses, I have to say that the B word's not allowed on the site either cause it's anti woman ;)
Why is saying "I don't want to have an abortion" anti choice? It's not. And if it's simply left at that, it's not called out, although posters will often ask for further clarification. It's the reasoning given behind "I don't want to have an abortion". If you simply say "I'm not going to get an abortion", yes people will ask for further clarification, maybe their decision is based on myth or misconception, and all choices should be educated and empowered choices, not based on 'xyz will be mad if I do' or insecurity about the choice, or lack of support, or resources, or funds, all of which GM can help with. It's when someone says "I'm not going to have an abortion, because I think it's wrong" that it becomes an anti choice issue. Or when someone says "I'm pro choice, but that's not a choice I could ever make", it becomes an issue. Or "I'm okay if other girls do it, but could never do it myself", then it's an issue, and those are judgement statements that just are not allowed on the board.
And you know what? We probably do have seekrit anti choicers lurking among us, and whatever to them, because they do know that regardless of their beliefs those are things that just are NOT allowed on the board, to create a safe space, freedom of speech is NOT a top priority here. Hopefully those anti choicers after being around here long enough will learn to realize and appreciate why abortion is a valid choice and why it is the right choice in so many situations. There's a ton of women here who came anti choice, kept quiet, learned, and are now strongly pro choice.
But if keeping quiet about anti choice beliefs is not something a poster can do, then yeah, it's best that they're not here, regardless of if they need support or not it cannot come at the expense of someone elses safe space. We've never told someone who's said anti choice things "Hey get out of here, you're not allowed", people have simply said "you cannot say things like that here, this is why, please refrain from doing so in the future".
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about women who DON'T make antichoice statements until someone comes in and questions why they don't want an abortion. What I'm saying is, why not just NOT question why they don't want an abortion? Why not allow them their space to say "hey, that's not the way I'm going to go" and leave it at that?
Why do we have to question a woman who says she doesn't want an abortion, just to call her out on her reasons? 3 people called out Girl. All she said was abortion scares her. Why not point her to some medical resources? Operations can be scary. I was scared to have my gall bladder out. People explained to me why it's sometimes necessary and helped me quell my fear. Why don't we try that rather than just saying "this is a prochoice site, you can't say that."
I know very well in my very first post (on black and green) that I made an unknowingly antichoice comment about late term abortions, saying that I couldn't do it. No one called me out. I stayed here, I learned, and I became more prochoice in that I don't see a problem with it anymore and I know that if I was faced with the same issues and situations as people who've chosen it, I probably would've gone the same direction.
I don't see a lot of people offering any assistance in changing people's minds other than "you can't say that here." Nobody told Girl that abortion isn't scary until I did it myself, and like I said, there were 3 other people calling her out before I got there.
Telling people "this is a prochoice site, you can't say that." doesn't address anyone's concerns or issues. I'm not suggesting we "bend the rules." I'm suggesting we NOT bait people into a callout. It's really no one's business why a girl doesn't want an abortion, it's no one's business why she does. When we get women here who are saying they don't want one, without giving reason, why do we feel we have the right to make her share information she doesn't want to give in the first place?
If someone ever said "I don't want this and I don't want to get into why" people wouldn't, but like I said, what's wrong with questioning why she doesn't want one? What if it IS the right choice for her and she's making a decision that isn't right for her life? When girls come here TTC we question them to make sure they know what they're getting into, why can we not question why a girl would not want an abortion if we think her reasons might be based on false information or lack of support? We're supposed to empower women to make educated decisions, not just write it off, and last I checked abortion wasn't taboo here, I'm not going to tip toe around it. GM isn't here for blind support, it's for education and empowerment along with support, we've never been a group for blindly supporting without questioning.
And maybe it didn't happen YET in Girl's thread, but there's a lot of threads with new women who said that they didn't want an abortion or they weren't sure what they wanted and we gave them stories, we gave them resources, we gave them support and we gave them information.
And like I said, everyone was still nice in that thread, so I'm still not getting the point of the defensiveness here. We all welcomed her, we mentioned casually why it wasn't okay, no one went on and on about it just offered explanations as to why it wasn't okay in case she didn't know, and then we offered our advice on her situation. So why all this, for real?
Um...maybe because I get a little tired of seeing young pregnant girls baited into a callout? Maybe because I see her right to keep her baby just as important as her right to abort it? Maybe because I think it's better to react in a way that helps people unlearn stigmas instead of having a bunch of people jump on them? Maybe because the FIRST thing that ever comes up is "you can't say that." when the first thing should be "here's why abortion is okay, it's a viable option, we're a prochoice site, and here's a thread discussing antichoice language and what you can and can't say at girlmom, please read it, it's important." Why not, instead of asking a gm why she doesn't want an abortion, then telling her she can't say what you just asked her to say, we don't ask at all? We offer information instead of asking?
When you ASK a girl with possible anti reasoning, who doesn't know any better, she's bound to think it's okay to say why SHE thinks (or has been told) it's not okay, believing it must be fine to say, since you ASKED her and all. Why not keep ourselves from pulling her into saying something that's not right and instead let her know the rules of language before presenting her with the double edged sword? I know it's a sticky, but a lot of people (obviously) don't read the stickies before they post their introduction, and ask for help. To them, their need for help outweighs their desire to do everything just right.
I just get irritated about the multiple "you can't say that"s after she's ASKED to say that.
I agree.
While I think that comments have to be nipped in the bud to avoid anti-choice sentiments, it does need to be done very, VERY carefully. We don't know what sort of condition girls are in when they find this site.
Personally I know I was in a bad one....
I think those first initial posts are done before any "stickies" are read, 9 times out of 10 anyways, so a new member may not know about avoiding certain sentiments.
I don't think that the questioning is such a 'bad' idea, but maybe when we question, we can remind, or inform for the first time :D , that the site is pro-choice... so please word your response wisely.
That way we aren't setting a woman up to be called out, when she might feel particularily senstive. And we're covering everyone involved as well, regarding whether or not she may or may not have read the 'stickies.'
And it also comes to a point of what's more important? Calling a girl out for anti statements she said when she didn't know any better, or actually KEEPING people from being triggered by those statements? If we know or suspect that someone is going to say a triggering statement if we ask a certain question, why not prevent that trigger?
I'm saying why instead provide the info, and move on? If they choose to explain themselves afterward in triggering ways, then by all means there's a callout in order. I just don't think we should go asking for it.
That was supposed to say "Why don't we instead" not "why instead"
And how do you suggest we know what info to provide if we don't ask?
If someone has misconceptions, are we just supposed to zero in and guess what they are? Provide absolutely every source of information we have regarding it in hopes that one of them is the right one?
How about providing without asking? When someone says, for instance, abortion scares me, it's pretty cut and dried what the issue is. If people say it's not for me, here you go:
"Blah blah blah, addressing problem pregnant woman has brought to GM.
And just so you know, abortion is a safe and viable option for all women. PM me or just go ahead and ask if you want more information. You don't have to explain your own reasoning as to what you want, Girlmom is a very prochoice site no matter what you choose about your pregnancy, and here's a link to what you can and can't say here about that issue."
It's really not that hard. And I'd rather just have it pointed out before the statement is made than have it floating around out there, and every introductory thread possibly needing a trigger mark.
i like that answer.
i would add something like "many women feel afraid or ashamed about choosing abortion because we live in a world where we aren't allowed to talk about our stories of abortion. in reality, the emotion most women feel after abortion is relief. many women find that their abortion is not as scary as they first thought."
okay, I haven't read every post in this thread, so just let me know if this has already been adressed and I missed it.
mamamayhem, I think the risk of "baiting someone into a call-out" is well worth the question "why do you think you can't handle an abortion." Why? Because sometimes this is the only place where a woman will hear that an abortion IS an option. Sometimes they come here, not having made their own choices like you said, but rather going along with what has been portrayed to them as the lesser of two evils...and their only concievable option. So yeah, it's important to ask.
And I also think the "call-out" is just as important, because that's when these new women get exposed to how comprehensive our support of abortion-rights is. That's when they hear someone, finally, saying that it's not just that we shouldn't ban abortion, but that we should fully normalize it.
BUT, I do think the point you're raising is important, even in the framework I suggested, because we should be handling it as "enlightening" rather than "calling-out". Rather than this just being about protecting our site and our space, it should be conscienciously aimed at helping the poster see that not everyone thinks of abortion as something to be avoided at all costs.
okay, there was some cross-posting and you just addressed all that. yup. I like your suggestion too!
urgh, no, I'm just a jerk who didn't even notice the second page. sorry for interrupting your flow!
i agree with mamamayhem and rebex right up there ^^
i know that when i was first pregnant, i hardly addressed it in a feminist perspective with the maturity and language that comes from deconstructing my choices as a woman and what being a woman with reproductive capabilities means in today's society. it was more "ok holy fuck there is a baby in my belly and i need to either be a mom or get rid of it." that language wouldn't fly too far here, but shit, i knew i could have used you girls like nothin else. whats to say newer posters who use somewhat fucked up language won't as well. especially the ones that are so young.
i've been pregnant since i delivered my now big-kid and said straight up "i don't want an abortion, i don't think i can do it" and you know what lifer feminists said to me? "if you can't do it, then lets look at your other options more closely. lets talk about why you are reluctant to have the abortion." because they knew the issue was with having that huge decision on your shoulders. sure, they knew me pretty well by then and prob knew i wasn't expressing antichoice sentiments but was expressing what i felt was right for me in my situation, but why can't we extend that same benefit of the doubt to new members? what are we so afraid of? are we so scared of antichoicers (who are ignorant dumbasses anyways) that we would deny any other woman the opportunity to receive support and education? <-very unfeminist thing to do btw.
sometimes i read first posts by members and get confused at what the older members are doing, like why are they even going there and saying that? yes we are unapologetically prochoice here and hell, i helped instigate a lot of these guidelines that we now operate by, but keeping in mind who this site is for, no guideline was EVER made to alienate a young, scared as fuck, marginalized girl. never ever ever. EVER.
when approaching any issue, i believe that needs to be the stance we take, first and foremost. because it would be a damn shame if someone came here and said "so my 14 year old bf knocked me up, i don't wanna have an abortion cuz thats scary, but i don't know what to do omg my parents are gonna freak out" and we "called her out," where else does she have to go? a crisis pregnancy center? does she have a ride or bus route to planned parenthood? will she have to go through her pregnancy scared as hell and isolated because she was silenced by members in way more comfortable positions who are too busy sitting back in their chairs patting themselves on the back for ensuring girlmom is a tightly run antichoice ship to realize the damage they have done? we are all at different stages of learning and growth, and i very much disagree that you need to be up to the standards of stupid "stickies" to get support when you are in a fucked up position like being a marginalized pregnant person.
And no one is disagreeing with that, I'd never be rude to a woman just because she said something, but I don't see harm in pointing it out casually. She was called out in the first one, and replied and seemed confused as to why because the first time there was no explanation (as I think there should be), and so I explained why, just saying that even if meant innocently it still creates an air of judgement, then I went on with advice, then the thread continued with more advice. I don't think anyone in the thread in question was alienating.
will she have to go through her pregnancy scared as hell and isolated because she was silenced by members in way more comfortable positions who are too busy sitting back in their chairs patting themselves on the back for ensuring girlmom is a tightly run antichoice ship to realize the damage they have done?
I'm a little hurt by that. You make it seem like because we casually mentioned it, and btw, none of us at all were rude, condescending or even acted like it was a big deal, just a notice so she knew, that we're like that??
i've been thinking about this since earlier, and why girls come on here saying "i don't think i could handle that" etc. and i have already mentioned this but, i was never pregnant as a teen and know that many of you were, and many of the posters on here are teenage girls. But as a young woman becoming pregnant, i feel that the general expectation is that the young woman will have an abortion, for whatever reasons. But i think that when making your choice, and if your choice is to continue with your pregnancy, its hard to defend that choice, because society has so much doubt and a hate-on for teen moms it seems. i think it is easier to defend your choice to continue by attacking abortion, and making it seem "too much to handle, scary, or only for other people" instead of just having the courage to stand up and say "i want to continue my pregnancy, and i don't want to explain why" - i don't know thats just what it seems. When i was telling my friends and family i was pregnant, some of my friends kept telling me that i can have an abortion, over and over, but i didn't want to. I wanted to continue, so i always framed my decision as " i don't want to have an abortion" instead of " i want to have a baby and be a mother." Because i felt like it was easier to defend... does anyone see what i'm saying when i say that?
I don't know how that fits into what you are trying to accomplish with the call-out thing... i just feel like there is more to what the girl is saying than, " i dont want one " but when its followed by anti-choice reasoning, thats a problem. But i like the idea of haveing some sort of solid "informative pro-choice statement" that when someone says " i dont want one" - you can ask why they dont want one, but still CLEARLY get the point across that girlmom is prochoice, abortions are an option for everyone...
hmmm.. i'm acutally really liking this thread because i feel like abortion IS a taboo subject. and i wish didnt feel that way because its so important.. i dont think GM should waver on anti-choice callouts, and even though i don't think any of them have been particularly nasty, i agree that there should be and very concise and informative way of addressing some of the wording used ... i like what mamamayhem wrote, i think that is quite to the point.
ps. whoops forgot about the B word thing :)
naivete, this isn't about that specific thread and that thread alone. If it was only one thread, I wouldn't have mentioned this at all. This is about the way the issue is handled by GM as a whole. I tried digging through the threads this morning to find more examples, but I just don't have the time right now. I used that thread as an example of something many members see here as happening a lot around here.
just a note, i wasn't referring any specific thread in particular. i'm bad at reading every thread thats posted, so i was referring more to what i see sometimes, generally. i didn't even know you were replying to someone in that manner naivete, honestly.
its nothing personal, i have no time (and neither does anyone else) to nurture personal attacks. or if they're necessary at least pm would be more appropriate than this. it was more a message about what i think gm stands for and how to handle potentially antichoice sentiments from someone who is experiencing a crisis.
Kay, it's good to know it was just a generic comment, I was thinking "dang.. that's kind of harsh"
Yeah if this was...well, ironically, some kind of call out thread, I'd have taken it to PM. This wasn't directed at anyone in particular, or about any certain thread. Just a general policy I think needs another look.
I'm sympathetic with the sentiment Kaya expressed. I respect a need for safe space, but at the same time this site is directed at *young* mothers, mothers who may not have had the access to elaborate deconstructions of systems of oppressions and some of the policies I think are created with that understanding.
**and here's where something that might be triggering to people begins**
And you know, I have a lot of questions as to whether someone saying that they personally could not have an abortion is anti-choice. I don't buy that it's judgemental. While I truly believe that abortion is safe and a good thing, I had a D&C performed (due to hemorrhaging due to a miscarriage) a couple of years ago that was extremely mishandled by the doctor, in that she lied to me about what was going to happen during the procedure and performed things on me without my consent and was verbally abusive in the follow-up appointments. And while I know that isn't normal, while that isn't reflective of abortion as much as how much our society treats pregnant teens shitty, it also made abortion not something I could do because of my history. And I don't think that makes me anti-choice. And I'm sure there are other people who come into this community saying they couldn't have an abortion who have other reasons than thinking it's unsafe or wrong or whatever.
So, anyway, this ended up a tangent a while ago so I'll stop.
Glasses, I totally get that. It's sometimes a lot easier to explain your "decision" to become a young mom as a default, "well, I got pregnant, and I didn't really have a choice, because I couldn't go through an abortion or an adoption" rather than a well thought out choice "well, I want to be a mom and I want a baby. I feel it is the best choice for me.". Because the latter is admitting that maybe being pregnant isn't a mistake. And that's a big no-no, according to a lot of people.
I think it's possible that some posters may be saying they couldn't have an abortion when they really mean that they actually want to continue the pregnancy, but are afraid to admit it. But, I don't think there's a way to tell whether someone is uninformed about abortion, which may be the best option for them, or if they are just not admitting that they want to continue the pregnancy by they're first post.
I really like this, and I think that even if the poster is wanting to continue the pregnancy, but not wanting to come out and say that, this comment is affective. It's not saying what the person may be hearing from everyone else, that they are too young to have a baby and should have an abortion. It's simply letting them know that it IS an option, and if they choose to continue the pregnancy or have an abortion, they will be supported and won't be asked to explain their reasoning.
i totally get what the two previous posters are saying, as i have thought it alot as i was reading new posters post. i think there are tons of cases where some girls just dont want to admit that they want to keep the baby so the way they word things show that.
i don't want to make anyone feel bad or bring in any one or two people from GM to make my point, so here's what happened to me with one of my "real life" support systems, and how it made me feel.
i am 100% pro-choice, but when i got pregnant, i knew almost immediately that for me personally, continuing with the pregnancy was right for me. i was so proud of myself because i actually got on the ball about my pregnancy, went to the doctor and started taking prenatal vitamins. from the minute i found out i was pregnant, i was really excited and i loved the child i was going to have, even though i knew that at only four weeks gestation, it was just an embryo. i knew it was going to be hard, but i wanted to be a mother anyway.
and then i called one of my best friends and told her the news and she said, "why don't you want to have an abortion?" and my heart just sank. even though i know now that she was just trying to be helpful, i felt that the time that she was invalidating my choice and trying to tell me i couldn't do it. whenever i see a girl say, "i don't want to have an abortion" in her first few posts, i try to remember the way i felt during that interaction with my friend and although i let her know that i will be there for her regardless of her choice, i try to never ask, "why aren't you having an abortion" for fear that she'll think i'm saying, "your situation is so messed up and i think you should have an abortion because i don't think you'd be a good mother." of coursse it would illogical for her to assume that, but who among was logical when we were faced with that kind of choice? i would be willing to bet that none of us were.
so while i think it's important for the girls who come here to understand that this is a pro-choice site, i really don't see the need to question their decisions. i would never ask a girl, "why are you having an abortion? you know that keeping the baby is a viable option as well" for fear that she would think i was trying to pressure her into changing her decision, and i think the axe swings both ways.
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