let me...part 3

Very true, but at least its a start!

I'm still here, reading..
a lot of mamas are just saying what im thinking so im letting them have a go :P

I think it was magikmama that said it wasnt openly tabooed to talk about your marriage, or problems etc.. but when you do there is this feeling of "oh, shut-up, at least your married" and i really agree with that. Thats mostly what i was (poorly) trying to get across.

I really like the marriage trigger idea, and just.. i dont get down on single moms for venting about how much it sucks, so please.. dont get quietly down on me for venting about shitty married stuff?

it makes sense to us, but i'm not sure others agree. i mean, the post of mine from the privilege thread that led to this whole thread said

"about single mom sigs vs. married mom ones. Being a single mother is stigmatized in our society. Being able to be proud of that and confident in one's role as a single mother takes work, it involves moving against the current, and so it should be celebrated. Similarly, those sig lines help to show new members who are possibly single and scared, that they can do it, they are normal and okay.

Look at it this way. If I were to write "Queer and proud!" in my sig line, that would be me standing up against society and being proud of who i am, even though I've been told and it's socially established that I am wrong and bad because of that.
But if someone were to put "Straight and proud!" it would be a lot different, no?

It's not that girlmom is unfair, it's that society is. If single moms and married moms were equally valued, both sigs would be fine. But since marriage is used as a weapon against young moms, it's best not to have that weapon showcased here.

However, I don't think that talking about partners/husbands/SOs shouldn't be allowed. Having a partner is a privilege, but navigating a partnership can be difficult. I think we should encourage women frustrated with partners to speak up about these things. Women have been silent about their partners' shirking and shortcomings for way too long, and i for one don't want to replicate that here. It's important for us to communicate about things like that.

However, the flipside of "OMG my husband is so awesome, he just fed/bathed/cuddled/put to bed the kids, gave me a dozen red roses, cooked me a four course dinner and cleaned the whole house" really isn't necessary."

so it seems that something else must be going on here. many of us have stated that partner problems are fine to discuss, just don't post about how he's the best dad and husband ever, or include it in your sig line for it to jump out and accost single moms with every post.

i suppose that's not what i'm understanding, is what the problem with that was in the first place.

in regard to what rileysmama said here "This board is here to SUPPORT moms who need it most, meaning single teenage moms."

yes, girlmom DOES exist primarily for the moms who need it most, and those moms are usually the single teenage ones, who may not have support anywhere else. in NO way does that mean older partnered moms aren't welcome (shit, i'm one myself), but it does mean that if a currently teen or single mom is upset or offended by something we say and asks us to recognize that, we need to do that.

at some point as we age, we transition from being that pregnant teenager, to being the older mom who still needs support, but also needs to be an ally to the teenagers who are pregnant or brand new moms now. the teaching and learning that goes on between different "generations" of women is so important. older former young mamas need to be here. so many pregnant teenagers at girlmom have said that seeing mamas who were teen moms who have now found fulfilling jobs, raised children well, found supportive and respectful partners, and achieved their goals are an inspiration to them.

that last post by me was in response to the ones above it that weren't chelsea's.

here's the response to chelsea's:

"I think it was magikmama that said it wasnt openly tabooed to talk about your marriage, or problems etc.. but when you do there is this feeling of "oh, shut-up, at least your married" and i really agree with that. Thats mostly what i was (poorly) trying to get across.

I really like the marriage trigger idea, and just.. i dont get down on single moms for venting about how much it sucks, so please.. dont get quietly down on me for venting about shitty married stuff?"

but can you tell me how the feeling of "shut up" or the quietly getting down on you have occurred? have there been PMs or threads i missed? we don't want this to be happening, but since i've never seen it happen i don't know what to do to make it not happen. i know that a lot of people assumed i hated them for being married since i've spoken so much about marital privilege and opression, but in actuality, i don't hate married folks, nor do i want them to stfu about their problems. if someone is getting that feeling from me, despite my saying "no, tell me your problems!" and "i like married people!" then that's their own shit, you know? i suppose what i want to do is be able to separate all of this out into what's gm shit, what's personal shit, what's misunderstandings, etc.

Julie, do you not see the irony in that? How can it be inspirational, if it isnt to be talked about openly and completely?

I wasnt very clear and Im sorry for that, but what you just said is what i meant, I just didnt word it very good. I didnt meant to say that older moms arent welcome here, bcus we NEED older moms and allies..I meant that the boards primary purpose has been to help younger moms. Sorry if I didnt make much sense, and I probably still dont!

its not really personal, well.. some of it is.

I'm not going to dig up threads, it would take me forever (this is already taking too long) and its very subtle. The fact that im OBVIOUSLY not the only person who feels this way, and has noticed it should be enough.

Seriously, whats next.. putting
***TRIGGER***I HAD MY BABY***WARNING: BD WAS THERE, in threads when we have babies? because it might make someone (like myself) who didnt have thier kids dad there feel bad?

or **WARNING**TRIGGER**MY FAMILY when we post pics of our kids and dads/so's together?

Should we not post about major life changes? like engagement.. that affect our parenting/lives?

I think that's kind of going to extremes. Like everyone said, talk about problems, events etc, openly, but if there's going to be a thread where you're going to be like, "omg he rocks, I love him so so so much, he did this for me and this for me and this for me.." maybe make a *partnered trigger* for it.

whew! that took a long time to read. and while I was reading it just kept gettin longer :shock:

sig lines don't bother me much, honestly i only read 'em once in a while but i can see where that sort of stuff could get an unpartnerd mama down.

on the reverse side i do see how partnered mamas feel like they are being put down. its not really that the post answers are that mean, though some of them are, its more that they aren't responded to by as many people- like fewer people take an interest. and alot of the answers to any relationship problem sound like "fuck men, fuck him, he's abusive, he's a jerk, break up with him." its rare that i've seen a post in my (split) time at girl mom that looks at how to keep a relationship together. and I understand that most of us have had problems with men that might bias us just a little.. but i try not to let that get in my way.

so sometimes it souns like "Either just be single or stop complaining" kwim?

not to sound like im encouraging clicks, but there are a lot of partnered mamas here and they should strive to support each others partner-related posting efforts and problems more I think... i guess.

but im sort of a quiet voice here myself, so im sure i shouldnt tell everyone to shout louder.... lol.

chelsea, i have said before that threads where we talk about how we came to love ourselves enough to only accept respectful and supportive treatment are great. threads where we talk about how we left crappy relationships are awesome. we just don't need anyone to flaunt it in a sig line, and we need recognition of privilege!

from page 2 of this thread
"discussions about finding our worth and that we WILL find people who see that worth someday are all over the board. those are great, fine, wonderful, and they can happen in a way that doesn't flaunt the greatness of my own relationship for my own purposes, because i'm just so tickled pink i gotta share, but for the purpose of helping other women know they can find that."

i have shared my story many times on this board, of how i was single from 6 months pregnant until D was 2, and abstained from sex for much of that time, and used that break to really find myself and get to know me as a woman and mother, figure out what sort of treatment was okay with me, and how to recognize warning signs of partners that weren't okay. there have even been "how did you meet your partner?" threads before, and i can't speak for anyone else, but i'm okay with that. what i DON'T want to see is a hubby in a sig line or a post titled "OMG I can't believe it!" that's all about how he cleaned the kitchen, gets the baby to bed every night and spends two hours massaging your feet each day. a post about how we found our partner, or how we got to a place to be ready for a healthy relationship are about the process, showing the steps to get there. the "OMG" post and the sig lines are just "looky what i got!"

dancing in the nude said:

"on the reverse side i do see how partnered mamas feel like they are being put down. its not really that the post answers are that mean, though some of them are, its more that they aren't responded to by as many people- like fewer people take an interest. and alot of the answers to any relationship problem sound like "fuck men, fuck him, he's abusive, he's a jerk, break up with him." its rare that i've seen a post in my (split) time at girl mom that looks at how to keep a relationship together. and I understand that most of us have had problems with men that might bias us just a little.. but i try not to let that get in my way."

i think part of the reason they may get less responses is that people don't know what to say. a lot of mamas here haven't had experience with a serious, long-term relationship, or living together, or marriage.
i generally try to say something, but with some threads, particularly things like men who won't do their share of the housework, i'm just fresh out of ideas, you know?

"its rare that i've seen a post in my (split) time at girl mom that looks at how to keep a relationship together."

i know i've suggested counseling a lot, but i also know that the ability to find childcare, money, and a counselor who fits your needs is a privilege. we pay 45 bucks a session, which is really more than we can afford but as a social worker student i think counseling is really important. some people think it's crap and that's their call to make. i've also suggested self help books, journalling, scheduled couple discussion time, and a bunch of other dopey social worker things.

it's a tough call to make sometimes, whether we should say "mama he's bad news, how can we help you leave?" or "counseling! date nights! dr phil!" is there more going on than we know about? is mama needing that one "it's time to leave" word of encouragement to make what may be the best choice of her life? it can be hard to know what to say, but i don't think any of us want mamas to leave partnerships they aren't ready to leave yet. we just want everyone to be happy, safe, healthy, and respected.

yeah i just thought well, partnered mamas are sort of all complaining about the same things... but it seems like they aren't helping each other here... again i dont want people to form clicks but i thought, well, a mama who's never had to choose an abortion might not know what to say to a mama who is struggling with that decision. and an unpartnered mama probably doesnt know exactly what to say to partnered mama problems... so maybe partnered mamas should say more to each other about problems they share.

obviously we all should give each other support, but partnered mamas or mamas who have been in long term relationships are better equipped for advising relationship problems and they should take it upon themselves to do so. I guess... that might sound snarky but its not supposed.

I guess my point is, sometimes you feel excluded from girl mom because you haven't (as a group of partnered mamas) tried to seek each other's acceptance and support enough.

and maybe unpartnered mamas could think posts through a little bit more before telling partnered ones to just "break up" and deciding that everything is abuse or unfair. I mean, its not that easy, these girls love their partners or need them in someway most of the time. its sort of undelicate to just say that same thing to everyone with a relationship problem.

like killing flies with sledge hammers. :D

I have read this whole thing and haven't said much and just wanted voice a little...

I do believe that being married/partenered is a privelage and yes at times it can be plain out PAIN in the ass. But to me it is a privelage. I am not married but partenered and I have enough help from him that I call it a privelage. Yess he does not do certian things blah blah blah. He can't hear andrew cry in the middle of the night because he is a hard sleeper but if I woke him up cause I needed to sleep he would get right up. When he was un-employed for about 1 month a couple weeks ago he took care of andrew and gave me a HUGE break I needed!! If me and him didn't have a mixed descent income then we couldn't get our own place.

I am not at ALL trying to throw this in peoples faces I am just trying to prove that it is a privelage for most partenered young moms. When me and him were broken up I felt wierd being alone and people would ask where is he and I would say I broke up with him.. and they just looked at me in awww.

Also I do sometimes not liek to open my mouth about the good things about mike cause I dont want to hurt anyone but at times I just want to talk to another young momma that can listen when I am in a good mood and as well listen when I am in a bad mood. I just think everyone here should get the same respect and support!! No matter if you are single, gay, married, divorced, or partenered!! We should all be here to support each other! This is what this site is for!

Thats very well said!

"also, mamabutterfly, i really do want to know about the "very man-hating extremist views." that's an accusation often lobbied at feminists and queer women, so as both, i'm very curious."
Sorry, bad choice of words, but here is why I feel that way. All these quotes are from the marriage thread:

"There are many who get married for citizenship, insurance and other reasons along that line. It makes me scared that then a man has that much control over a woman and her health, her immigrant status"
--men marry women for those reasons too

"legal and political aspects NOT aside, why do so many of us hetero women or women in hetero relationships get married despite the fact that our glbtq friends and family members aren't able to marry who they love and receive the same benefits?"
--should we have taken away men's right to vote when women wanted the right to vote, instead of working forward for change??

"your husband has the privilege/right to rape you."
--simply not true

"well congratulations for being a marriage success story.
/end of sarcasm"
--just rude

"I think this thread is far too important to clog up with the exceptions of 'happy relationships' and the defense of them."
--Happy marriages are not the exception and are just as important to talk about when discussing marriage.

"I'm still not entirely happy with it. I love my husband dearly. I have a very good marriage, and he in no way treats me like property. But he COULD. ANY TIME HE WANTS."
--And if he did, you could LEAVE HIM. ANY TIME YOU WANT.

"And the fact that just because he chooses not to I should be happy, makes me sick inside"
--does it make you sick inside that you should be happy you have food in your mouth?

Hope that clarifies. Sorry it took so long.

I hope you're joking about the Dr. Phil thing.

I think it would be great if Girlmom was a place people could find help and advice for suffering relationships. Not because partnerships are not a privilege but because we want to support everyone and we want everyone to be happy.
I definately think we jump on the "leave" train way too fast most of the time, and we also sometimes forget that men have feelings too. I KNOW this site is NOT here to support men, but many of us women live with men or want to have healthy relationships with men, and that should not be a bad thing.
Sometimes I want to encourage women to not give up (obviously abusive relationships are an exception) but I'm afraid of appearing anti-feminist.

""There are many who get married for citizenship, insurance and other reasons along that line. It makes me scared that then a man has that much control over a woman and her health, her immigrant status"
--men marry women for those reasons too "

mamabutterfly, we live in a sexist, patriarchal society in which men by nature of our society have more power than men. many of us are afraid, with good reason, when women are in positions where men have even MORE power over them, such as if a man controls a woman's immigration status, or if she is fully dependent on him because of that immigration.

""legal and political aspects NOT aside, why do so many of us hetero women or women in hetero relationships get married despite the fact that our glbtq friends and family members aren't able to marry who they love and receive the same benefits?"
--should we have taken away men's right to vote when women wanted the right to vote, instead of working forward for change?? "

but as other people said, entering into an exclusive, discriminatory institution is like entering a whites-only restaurant, or a military school that won't admit women. i can see both aspects of the argument, and so all i ask is that people think critically before entering into marriage, and work hard as GLBTQ allies afterwards.

""your husband has the privilege/right to rape you."
--simply not true "

read on in that thread. i said myself that although marital rape is illegal, in some states women must take extra measures to prove it. that's insulting.

""I think this thread is far too important to clog up with the exceptions of 'happy relationships' and the defense of them."
--Happy marriages are not the exception and are just as important to talk about when discussing marriage. "

whether they are the exception or not isn't really something any of us know. look at the divorce rate. when we are talking about the OPPRESSIVE NATURE of the INSTITUTION of marriage, happy relationships are often used to say "oh no, that doesn't exist." people often use their OWN partnership as the measuring stick for these discussions, and what we are saying is that just because your marriage isn't oppressive doesn't mean marriage in general can't be.

[/b]"I'm still not entirely happy with it. I love my husband dearly. I have a very good marriage, and he in no way treats me like property. But he COULD. ANY TIME HE WANTS."
--And if he did, you could LEAVE HIM. ANY TIME YOU WANT.

i dont find this to be true, for instance in my situation one morning i couldnt wake up and be like yeah i wanna leave steven! i have no money no job no work experience and no where to go., so please if you wanna use a quote of mine calling it "plain rude" please make sure all of what your saying is accurate :)

Agreed. In this society many people think abused women are stupid or that they like or allow being abused. Saying that a woman can leave whenver she wants mimimizes the very real struggle and terror involved in leaving. Even a woman who makes as much or more money than her partner risks alot when leaving.

I agree with that Dana. Its HARD to leave your BD, especially if your situation is like mine was with him working and me going to school. If it wasnt for abuse, I wouldnt have ever left simply bcus i knew i would struggle, like I am now.

I don't think anyone was using thier positive examples of marriage to imply that oppressive marriages don't exist. I think people were just trying to point out that marriage isn't always oppressive. We were talking about the pressures of getting married. A lot of us were pressured NOT to get married, and we chose to anyway. Sometimes I question the choice I made, and I do get the impression (I guess it could be false) that if I discuss some of the problems I am having that I really NEED to discuss, there will be heavy biases against my husband. I know some of my insecurity stems from the fact that this is a public board, and that I am a new user. Some of it is definitely out of the control of anyone here. I just don't want to feel like I have to take a back seat to other mamas. Yes, marriage is a privaledge that I have that many of you do not, but I am sure many of you have privaledges I do not have. I don't hold it against you. But you don't know me, you don't know my situation, and I am not about to try and say which one of us has it better off than the others because to me it doesn't matter and I could never know anyway. To me, everyone is worthy of support for whatever problems they have with whatever choices they have made or will make in the future.

In addition to Dana's post, if you were in fact to up and leave your household, one may very well lose the right to the property in the household. Depending on the circumstances, judges will typically award more property to the spouse who continues to live in the family home (i.e. the house, the appliances, major furinture, etc.).

Also, I think what needs to be pointed out is that men by their very nature of being men, have immense social power. I work in immigration law and I know that there are many husbands who abuse their immigrant spouses and hold the woman's status hostage. If she's in a position where she doesn't speak English, or doesn't know anyone, she may not know that a provision in VAWA (Violence against women act) allows her to peition herself as the battered spouse of a U.S. citizen.

Further, more about the institution of marriage being opressive needs to be discussed. Marriage is an opressive institution where women are taught, and more often than not, treated as less than a person. Marriage has continued to be opressive because many of us buy into the society approved role that the wife is supposed to play. Like I said previously, for a long time I had lost my complete identity as a person to become the wife/mother. This was acceptable. I have been seen as selfish because I've taken control of my own life without obtaining permission from my husband. I was accused of not caring for my son because I wanted to work and go back to college.

Sorry if I offended you, Dana. It wasn't intended. I know it can be really hard to leave an abusive relationship. I didn't want to bring this up or seem like I was attacking you. I was just asked to back up what triggered my feelings and that post was part of it. No hard feelings, kay? :)

but mamabutterfly, do you recognize that leaving a partner isn't just as easy as "oh i think i shall leave him today! tra la la!"?

"To me, everyone is worthy of support for whatever problems they have with whatever choices they have made or will make in the future."

Right. I feel like that was clear in every single post I made here, and the post i made in the old thread that was brought over here as the "problem."

Tiffany put it quite well.

When I read, over and over, about men calling women in their lives stuped, yelling at them because they cut their hair, cheating on them, telling them they are ugly, fat, disgusting, telling them that no one else will want them, telling them that they are bad mothers, that they are bad (wifes, girlfriends, partners), telling them that if they dare to leave them they will take custody of the children, telling them they don't keep the house clean enough while working 40 hours a week and going to skool. Don't you understand-- I read these stories every day, I hear them from women in my community every day, I read about them in the news every day. These stories have happend to ME, to my family, to my friends, to my friends friends. I have been through a phsical and more emotional/mentally abusive relationships than I would like to admit-- AND NO ONE SAID TO ME "this is wrong". I AM NOT going to say to a woman, "oh yes, of COURSE you should be with this person who makes you feel like shit day in and day out."
I will fully support couples theripy, but when many mamas here don't have health insurance, or the health insurance doesn't cover, they can't access the low cost theripists, their significant other won't go I'm not going to advocate that they stay in a place where they are being called names and made to feel unworthwhile.
I do NOT feel this is anti-man. This is anti-feeling like shit all the time.

I AM going to speak up and say, "You don't DESURVE to be treated like this. You have the RIGHT to be happy in your relationship." I am never going to say, "Suck it up and deal with it."
I got told that, and you know what? I got the shit beaten out of me for three months, I got raped while I was sleeping, I got told that I was a horrible woman (other words were used), I was told I was ugly. And no one said that was wrong. All the things they said to me, they still run through my head today. I still have nightmares about curling up on the floor to protect myself while I got kicked.
I was with them because, in my mind, they legitmized me as a human, then as a mother. I had no identity outside of them. Until my best friend came up to me and said, "Kat, you desurve better than this. This is not how people who love each other treat each other." And I tried to justify it, "Well, I'm _____ (mouthing off, I'm a slob, I didn't do what he said....) and she called me out on it and kept calling me out. And, I finally realized she was right. But, it took years. It took fucking years.
I am not going to sit by and watch women on here have repeated problems with their bfs/husbands/girlfriends/wifes and be ok with that, without them thinking seriously about weather or not being with the person is worth it.
And, I'm going to call it out, even if it takes years.
The propaganda to stay together, to be a "happy little family no matter what it takes, me and you against the world, baby" is EVERYWHERE. Turn on the t.v., instant, read a magazine, a book, liston to the news, see an advertisment, look at a billboard, it's EVERYWHERE.
You don't see-- "You don't have to be miserable in a relationship." everywhere, you don't see, "You are a great person without a significant other to justify you", you don't see, "you don't desurve to be abused." If I'm a lone voice saying, "You don't need to be with someone who makes you miserable" so be it.

This is damaging to marriage, to families, to women, and to men. This is not about how perfect or not perfect anyones relationship/marriage is. This is about the role of marriage in our society and what that role means. DECONSTRUCT! Deconstruct your role, deconstruct your husbands role, deconstruct what the media tells us, deconstruct what the government tells us ("You'll get $400.00 more a year, if you're on welfare and you get married!!!!!" "Single mothers are the bane of our society, a drain on our resources. Sitting and eating their bon-bons while riding in their convertables."), and deconstruct why this is making you so angry.

I think that as everyone has been saying, bring up your problems, talk about them, give each other support, be there for each other, but don't throw things in peoples faces.
You want to talk about how lucky you are because you have a husband who puts your kids to bed so you can take an hour long bubble bath in your jacozee-- great, go talk about it on livejournal-- that's awesome that you have that. I think that when there are people who don't have a certain privilage saying, "Hey, can you please not do xyz" then liston.
Yes, everyone has their privilages and marginalizations, and the best way to keep and create community is to recognise all of that and be deeply respectful of the needs of people who are being marginalized on an issue. In tern, when it comes to an issue in which you are marginalized and I am not, I will respect that, and I fully expect to hear about it if I am not.

"but mamabutterfly, do you recognize that leaving a partner isn't just as easy as "oh i think i shall leave him today! tra la la!"?"

"To me, everyone is worthy of support for whatever problems they have with whatever choices they have made or will make in the future."

Right. I feel like that was clear in every single post I made here, and the post i made in the old thread that was brought over here as the "problem."

I wasn't saying that you were saying otherwise. And what is this about your post being the "problem"? You asked me what triggered the feelings that I expressed. I apologized for the bad choice of words, but it doesn't change the way those posts made me feel. I do have a right to feelings and opinions, right?

kat, I agree with you completely. I don't think women should stay in abusive relationships. I feel like I have been somewhat misunderstood in all of this. I am sorry if I hurt anybody. I am feeling kind of shitty about all this right now. :(

"legal and political aspects NOT aside, why do so many of us hetero women or women in hetero relationships get married despite the fact that our glbtq friends and family members aren't able to marry who they love and receive the same benefits?"
--should we have taken away men's right to vote when women wanted the right to vote, instead of working forward for change??

But why should we be granted privelges in marriage anyway? That wouldn't take the lack of privelge away from the Single parents, or even single people out there. Why should "finding the love of your life" matter to the government? Marriage should be about your committment/religious choice or whatever, but not for a tax break or so you can get rights that you are entitled to. If the government finally started to accept GLTBQ people, then what about people who choose open relationship? Why would it matter to the government if someone wanted more than one partner (and I'm not talking about the ones where Men isolate women and have 54654 wives, because the women don't get a choice in that, or aren't presented with all the information)? The government should have no input on how we choose to love and who we fall for. Marriage itself should be personal and the privelges shouldn't be only for married people.

I know I sound like a hypocrite, because I am married, but I was married before I found Girlmom. And honestly it is a piece of paper but that paper has value. I don't share the same worries that single or GLTBQ couples feel, though I do have my own agravations that aren't unfounded or stupid- but this isn't the place for them. I mean questions about partnership and diving up our duties and all that could have a place here, but I know that there are people who need to be heard before me. I can take my "hubby trouble" elsewhere, to my online journal or to friends or to any other board but I this is the only place that I can come to and know i don't need to defend my right to choose, or that will help me with my past abuse or if I am ever abused and not judge me but embrace and empower me. I'm sorry for the married mamas that feel isolated, and if you ever want to talk you can PM me.

"but mamabutterfly, do you recognize that leaving a partner isn't just as easy as "oh i think i shall leave him today! tra la la!"?"
MamaButterfly wrote:
Sorry if I offended you, Dana. It wasn't intended. I know it can be really hard to leave an abusive relationship. I didn't want to bring this up or seem like I was attacking you. I was just asked to back up what triggered my feelings and that post was part of it. No hard feelings, kay?

no but i'm not just referring to abusive relationships. i'm referring to all relationships. if our partners aren't abusive, but we are unhappy, unfulfilled, etc., it can still be hard to leave a relationship. it can be doubly hard if you are a woman leaving a man. we've all heard i'm sure that men tend to fare better financially after a divorce, while women are worse off.

"And what is this about your post being the "problem"? You asked me what triggered the feelings that I expressed. I apologized for the bad choice of words, but it doesn't change the way those posts made me feel."

no i was referring to the post of mine that apparently set off the whole thread, on the first page. the post quoted by cherrygirl was mine.