Anti-Racism frustration

right now i see my place in the fight against racisim as simply informing.
or unlearning as many people as i can.
i hear racisim, i make a comment. i let people know that it offends. i ususally try to turn it around on them. "hey is it ok for me to call you this...or say this about YOUR race???"
and then i tell them they sound totally ignorant. that is usually what realy gets to them.

As someone who is white, I do my best to not catagorise peoples experiences at all. I try and take them at an individual level and respect what words/beliefs they have. If I disagree with a friend, both white or not white about something (like reverse racism), I will explane my opinion about it and LISTON to their opinion, and see what I agree with and what I doin't agree with. If the conversation gets really interesting, I will sigest reading materials, etc.
If I am talking to white people, who claim to be anti-racest, but crack jokes and make fun of "PCers", I talk to them about it-- alone. Generally I have found that with a group of friends around them, you won't be able to make them see any point you have, but alone they're way more receptive. Talk to them about language and the effects of it. I also, don't, usually, hesitate to speak up when I don't think that what someone has said is ok.

If you're interested in doing more work with this sort of stuff, the YWCA offers a TON of anti-racest/unlearning groups, speakers, etc. and is always looking for volunteers.

My beliefs as a POC:

1. I quite often use POC, although I know it's not the best term to use. There are a lot of minority groups without color or of an obvious racial minority. I know they face a lot still, and more because they don't look their race, and a term to use to discuss people of minority should be all encompassing, because not every minority is of color. Maybe I'll switch to PORM (People of racial minority) but it looks to much like Porn. I'm tired, and I'm babbling, and will probably just continue using POC unless someone has another, more encompassing term that can be substituted.

2. I believe that racism = prejudice + power. I believe POC can be prejudiced, but not racist as they don't have the systemic power behind their prejudice to make it racism.

3. Discussing racial beliefs with a POC as a PWOC is difficult. Racial issues of POC often have a lot of heated emotions behind it, and I can see how a PWOC trying to 'teach them' would be offensive. If you approached a discussion in a way that seemed non-intimidating, it would be great. I've learned a lot in the years about racial beliefs from PWOC, because it was well worded, non oppressive and something that made sense. I don't believe that just because a person is of a minority group that they have the say-all about racist beliefs, everyone has something to learn, and it shouldn't cause you to change YOUR beliefs unless it's something you truly agree with. If you want to engage in discussion with someone about it, just say you're curious and wanting to learn new things and ask their opinions and beliefs, sit and listen quietly, absorb - and then offer yours, and ask what they think about yours. They may disagree, they may agree, but than the learning is out there on both sides without offensiveness or defensiveness.

that was worded badly. I meant because they either don't look as the rest of their race does (albino, or just fair skinned. SO is full native, but has fairer skin then most white people I've met, and doesn't look native at all), or is of a race which does not look like an obvious minority but still is.

actually ive been talking to my bd and their family and a few of my " black " friends. i mentioned the term " person of color" they got realy offended, saying thats the same as " colorerd people" which it does sound damn near close. my friends prefer to be called black, they call each other black and think its offensive for me to tell them what they are to be called , ya know? you could try to discribe everyone by their native origin, ie. african america, but alot of black people dont feel they are african americans, because they have been in this country for longer than my family, why do i get to be an american and yet they are always considered outsiders to the american culture instead of the founders? im open to what ever, i just take my cues from the minorities i know. if someone i know were to say , such and such is offensive, i listen. my family is black so its sorta a tricky road for me to navigate. when i say something wrong, they know i love them so they just let me know whats up. i never heard " person of color" till i got here, but i would never use that in real life, it has caused alot of hurt among minorities IRL.

B/C native americans are the founders of America :)

I get what you mean, take your cues from whoever you're talking with on how to approach discussion respectably. Everyone's going to be offended by something that someone else wouldn't be offended by. I know many people who are offended by being called "blacks" and prefer "african american", and some who are like the ones you talk about, who prefer it the other way around.

Kinda off topic but... the only true African-American I know is a white man. He was born and raised in Africa, but he moved to the US to start a church.

I think racism is different things to different people. PWOC are never going to really understand racism the same way POC do.

well thats true alot of white people have settled in africa. not every person with brown or black skin is from africa. what i meant about founders, not native americans, i meant american culture, like todays society.

Just because a person was born in India doesn't mean they can relate to racism the way a black person can. They're still white.

maybe you should talk to someone IRL. i have my boyfriend, he's my all time expert. i actually have alot of black friends and my family is black. that doesnt mean i dont sometimes feel like im an outsider, or that i dont carefully watch what i say. but as long as you havent been offending your friends, and are mindfull of what you say, just you as an individual is changing something. just you being around and not bringing rasism to work with you or to school , makes everyone that much more uncomfortable in doing it themselves. people only speak out about their rasist views when they feel like others will agree. if you arent agreeing it makes others less likely to . you dont have to be the expert on unlearning or teach the whole world to be effective.

Please do not think I am a troll. I have been lurking here for a while and agree with so much of what this site is about but have stayed quiet mostly because I am so afraid of saying something that isn't PC and getting jumped on for it- I have seen it happened many times. Anyway, I have been reading a lot about the racism issue a lot on here and finally just couldn't bite my tongue any more...

Prejudice simply means judging someone before you get to know them. That could be for a number of reasons, age, skin color, job, physical ability, etc... RACISM means being prejudice on the basis of RACE- so ANYBODY can be racist. It simply means you classify people on the basis of their race. Now discrimination is an entirely different thing. That is when you put action to your negative thoughts/feelings/beliefs and wrongly deny a person of something such as a job, their rights to feel safe,or act out violently or with hurtful words. Again, ANYBODY of ANY race can do this to another race and it is ALWAYS WRONG. I do acknowledge that this is a "white" country meaning "white" people are in the majority so tend to be favored. HOWEVER, there are areas where "white" people are far from the majority and do experience mass amounts of racism and their experiences should not be discounted. I am white/ a PWOC/caucasian, whatever you want to call it and I grew up in a neighboorhood where we were the ONLY white people on the street. The highschool I went to was small because it was an alternative school. We had about 250 students. There were FOUR white people in the entire school. The way "we" were treated was horrible and it was soley based on our race. We experienced racism first hand and were discriminated against. We were pushed around and called racial slurs on a daily basis starting from the first day of school. Might I add that I was pregnant during this time. I went to teachers and the principle about it and NOTHING was done. This went on an entire semester all while I tried my hardest to ignore the people doing this to me and concentrate on my education which was very hard because every time I would ask or answer a question in class somebody would have some obscene remark to shout across the room. A couple months after my daughter was born I brought pictures of her to school and was showing them to my friends. One of the girls who I had the most problems with grabbed my pictures from me and threw them in the fountain in the courtyard (we were at lunch) and started running her mouth about how my baby was so white you could see threw her skin and she was so incredibly ugly and peopel like me shouldn't be allowed to breed and just went on and on with the racial slurs. Finally I had enough and said something that I should not have because in no way am I racist but I was just really mad at this particular girl and wanted to dish to her what she had been giving to me all year and I called her the "N" word. Now my friends that I was sitting with were POC and did not even get offended by this because they know what this girl and her friends had put me through. Well do you know she went to the principle and I was immediately EXPELLED from school?!?! I know it was a bad thing to say but why oh why was it okay for so many people to do such aweful things to me all year long followed by numerous complaints by me and I was a good student and stayed 100% out of school and I was kicked out of school for ONE word ONE time when it was provoked. Now there was outrage by my friends and a lot of other poeple in the school (for me being expelled) but the principle stuck by her decision saying racism would not be tolerated... what she meant was that POCs could do whatever they wanted whether it be violent or involve destroying someone's property soley because of their race but PWOCs better just shut up and take it.

How can you people sit there and say I have not experienced racism????

That should have said out of TROUBLE, I was getting ahead of myself, sorry

I can't believe I forgot to mention the time that "someone" at school carved with some sort of sharp object into the trunk of my car "white devil" and busted out my back window. I did call the police and contrary to popular belief (like in the "Scary Movie") the cops don't come running just because you are a white girl in trouble. I discovered this at lunch which is when I called and 2 hours later school was over and they still weren't there. I waited around probably about an hour but couldn't wait any longer and left. When I got home I called them again and later that night somebody came to my house and said there was nothing they could do since I had moved the car from "the scene" (so I was supposed to wait at school until 8 o'clock at night???) They wouldn't even take the report and left. Yeah, the police just always side with the white people and go after the black, right? My being white gives me a real advantage in my community doesn't it?

Hey, I see that you're new here. Go read our anti-racism FAQ, if you haven't already. That explains some of the differences between prejudice and racism, and the way that privilege works in our society.

http://www.girl-mom.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5818

Wow, I'm really sorry that you had a rough time in highschool, but your personal experience doesn't negate centuries of oppression perpetrated by White Europeans.

It doesn't make up for the fact that Africa and all of it's treasures, like diamonds, have been pillaged by England, France and the Boers. Perhaps you should look into the history of DeBeers Diamond co and it's founder Cecil Rhodes, of Rhodesia and Rhodes Scholar fame. It's doesn't make India being "civilized" by England any less hard to swallow. Also, let's not forget how Spain "civilized" most of South America. It was Europeans who brought opium to China. What about aboriginals in Australia?

All of that has left quite a legacy. All of the peoples native to lands that Europeans conquered are still TO THIS DAY treated like second class citizens. There is a white ideal in this world. Why are women in Asia having cosmetic surgeries to widen their eyes? Well, perhaps it's because there is a dominant idea all across the globe that you're somehow less than if you're not white. Why is it in Mexico, if a person looks more Native Mexican as opposed to Spanish ancestry, they're seen as less refined?

You were one of 4 white kids in a school of 250. Well, I was one of 15 white kids in a school of over 3,500. Big fucking deal. Guess what? When we went home from school, almost all of the newscasters were white. Out of 100 sitcoms on regular broadcast t.v., how many starring roles were played by black people? Somehow in Friends, they lived in an alternate reality where no POCs existed in New York City. If POCs want to see a channel that shows mainly other POCs, well they better get cable.

You had problems in highschool, it must have been really rough. That girl you mentioned was really mean. I had alot of problems in highschool as well. So much so, I didn't really go most of the time. It just doesn't change the fact this is a white dominated society.

The language distinction is baised off of a few theories. The first one is called "post-modernism" and the quick of it is that language is really, really imprecise (everyone has a slightly different idea of what every word means), so one can NEVER fully get ones idea across.
Inorder to help counteract that, one of the first things discussed when creating/writing theory, is the definitions of the language used. Many times the definitions are hammered out in a lot of different papers, books, etc. until most people involved in the theory aspect of the conversation can agree to language definitions and why. This then spills out into the verbal conversations and everyday language.

So, here's the thing, you weren't experiencing racism, you were experiencing prejudice and discrimination. I want to point out quickly that this does NOT mean that your experienes weren't horrible and tramatising. This does not mean that you weren't treated badly, and I don't want you to think that this makes your expereiences any less important or worthy of attention.
At this point in the discussion, we do need to step away from the dictionary definitions of words, and look at what surrounds them.

Racism as a word brings up really extreme ideas, perceptions, and a whole history of oppression and extreme cruelty. This oppression has, hisotorically, been white people oppressing people who weren't white, BECAUSE they weren't white. Race is a socially constructed concept, and it was created by Europeans as a way to justify slavery so that they could expand economically during the era of Enlightenment.
To say that someone who is white is experiencing racism discounts the whole history of what racism has, the effect that it has had on whole countries/contenents (Africa was decimated after slavery and colonisation to the point where they are unable to rebuild what they once had), on whole races of people. The meaning BEHIND the word is what comes into focus in these discussions.

Predjudice and discrimination do not have those same historyies behind them, but are more general terms. Again, this does NOT mean that people who experience prejudice and discrimination have less awful experiences than people who experience racism, but in order to fully recognise the context behind the different experiences (for example, you could, in theory, move out of the neighborhood/are where you lived and not be treated that way, while a person of color can not) we need to recognise the difference in the words that we use to describe the experiences.
The Personal is Political and every experience we have, positive and negative, needs to be put into the context of what oppressed people in our nation have experienced, as well as the socio-economic contexts that we currently live in.

Great post, Mae.

Being in one city/area/school that is predominantly nonwhite does not change the fact that our society, as a whole, is controlled and dominated by white people. Historically and currently, white people have held more power in society than any other group.

Kat said:
"To say that someone who is white is experiencing racism discounts the whole history of what racism has, the effect that it has had on whole countries/contenents (Africa was decimated after slavery and colonisation to the point where they are unable to rebuild what they once had), on whole races of people. The meaning BEHIND the word is what comes into focus in these discussions."

Well said.

I have read the FAQ, as I have said I have been lurking for a while and reading a lot on this forum about the issue.

I do understand what you are saying about the history and all of that, but I guess what I don't understand is the I have nothing to do with that and the people who were acting out against me had nothing to do with it either. I remember reading probably a little more than a month ago about how we (meaning white) all benefit from past racism because our parents were able to go to college and all that but I don't think that applies to every "PWOC" in fact I know it doesn't. First off, my ancestors weren't even living in America during the slave days. I am first generation born over here. My family was from Italy. I do see my "privelge" as a "white" person in that I am just classified as American as opposed to "African-Americans" or "Mexican-Americans" whose families have been here generations longer than mine has. Back to the people who did these things to me, they weren't acting out in a hate of being opressed by white people as far as I understood it. They were acting out of hating white people because we are supposedly ugly and "retarded" (their words- not mine.) I understand that I did not go through anything different than what "POCs" have been experiencing for a long time, but it still doesn't make it right. It was wrong then and it was wrong now. I am happy to see that my experience was not just brushed off.

Back to what "racism" means... as someone has said I did experience discrimination- but it was on the basis of race which I believe makes it racism. I see what you were saying about there has to be the "power" element to it, but in my community "they" did have the power. The school administration was "black" and did side with them... and there was no landmark court case or Jesse Jackson to my rescue. Maybe not in society as a whole, but I never lived in "mainstream white America." I do believe, however, that the power element does have its place in a different definition- abuse. I believe for someone to be ABUSED, and not simply assaulted that the asailent does have to be in a position of power whether it be authoratative or physcial.

Sorry, you ladies are far more articulate than I could ever hope to become ;) which is partially why I have kept my mouth shut for so long. I don't know, maybe this whole "anti-racism" thing and all whites are racist and can't experience racism thing is just WAY over my head because I am not getting it.

I don't think that you are inarticulate. I think that the things that you are saying are ok questions to be asking. I asked really similar things when I began unlearning. I would rather have you on here asking about this and listoning to what we're saying than not doing that, kwim?
I have found that articulation comes with a lot of learning about what you're trying to express, and right now, that's what you're doing.

You, specifically, and your ansestors may have had little to do with the slave trade, or from the systematic oppression of POC in this country (specifically), or the colonialzation of other countries, however you experience the benifit that whites have been given because of that legacy.
I, personally, did not keep slaves. But, this does not mean that I don't benifit from the legacy of the mentality that was created to justify slavery that still exists today. To use racism in the context of having it perpetuated against you if you are white, does not acknowlage the history behind the word and the legacy that is still in effect that it left on our culture and cultures all over the world. Even though you did not participate directly in that part of our history, by not recognising the impact that the WORD racism has, in the context of the history of this country and world, it discounts the experiences of POC who have to live with this legacy every day, wheather they want to or not.

The privilages that you experience as someone who is white, are not all concrete *things* (like the fact that our parents were able to go to college, etc.), nor do we all experience the same privilages.
But there are a few that we do all experience. No matter where we live, we all see predominantly white people in the media. We are told that the white standard of beauty is the standard of beauty. We are taught a white, patriarchal history, and we are taught that white culture is the norm. We are taught that our culture is an educated culture, rich culture, (as opposed to learning how African-American culture is very deep and has roots going back to Africa that have survived this many years, through extreme oppression and hardships). We are taught that the "proper" way to speak is how educated white people speak. We are taught the proper way to write a paper is how a bunch of white, educated men decided.

I am not trying to speak for these people, and I make this comment as someone who doesn't know them, and wasn't there. I don't think that they hated white people because they were ugly, those are probably the words they used, but there was probably something much deeper going on. When one lives in a culture, where everything in the culture tells one that one is going to fail, that one's way of speaking is wrong, that one is INHERENTLY stuped and ugly and is absolutly going to grow up to be a worthless criminal, when one lives in a culture where they are told by the "experts" (polititions, teachers, media people) that their lives are not going to amount to anything, that their culture is uneducated and has no value, that THEY have no value at all, there is going to be a lot of anger.
You were told this by a few people, and look how angry it made you. Imagine being told this from birth, by everyone else around you. You would be angry too. People can't lash out at the government. I can't go and key up Prez. Bushs car, I can't threaten to punch a lawmaker, so who do I take it out on? The people around me. I yell at my kidlet when I'm frustraited by polititions. Y

Absolutly it wasn't right. Racism, discrimination, oppression, prejudice is not ok. Your experiences sound horrible. The school should have, absolutly should have taken action to give you a safe learning enviornment.

Again, and I wasn't there so I don't know for sure, but I'm sure that POC could have had the power in that school. The formula is about a larger socital picture. The thing about theory is that it discusses larger societal situations that can get lost in the microchosim. That's why it's really important to be able to step away and look at situations in the context of a larger picture. When you are taking a bigger picture look at things, the small, minute amount of power that someone may have, or a group may have, within a school system, or in a neighborhood, is no comparison to the power that POC don't have throughout all other instatutions within our society.
Here's the big thing, when it comes down to it, you can go almost anywhere else in the country and have the power because of how you look.

I don't think this is you "not getting it". I think this is you unlearning things.
These ideas took three YEARS to even begin to enter into my head as possiblities, and I'm still unlearning, and have so so far to go.

Also, kids and teenagers will make fun of people just because they are different. Especially younger children. For being fat, skinny, wearing glasses, being bad at math, teachers pet, wearing unstylish clothes, whatever. While all those things you just listed are true, I'm not sure that would cause those teenagers to take it all out on her because she was white. And yes, I've read the FAQ too. Please let me know if I'm offending anyone.

the slave days weren't the only days that the foundation of racism was built on. Every pwoc in this country benefits from past racism, whether you got here five years ago or not if you look at it in terms of Native Americans.

I'm sorry if that sounds offensive, but leaving Natives out of the racism equation irks me, a lot.

My grandmother was an adopted, full-blood Native American, making me a quarter. However, I've got near full-blooded, enrolled cousins that put up with severe discrimination/racism on a daily basis (especially because my family is "casino Indians", as the phrase goes around here), as does my father, who is half but has the "appearance characteristics" of a full Native.

I can't remember which author said this (though I'm thinking it was Leslie Marmon Silko), but an example of the U.S.'s continued racism against NA's is: "Indians are the only U.S. citizens whose passports are invalid to reenter the country."

Whatever time you came here, as my uncle would say, you're still living on co-opted land.

Don't mean to sound rude, especially since I just started posting, I promise.

Every pwoc in this country benefits from past racism, whether you got here five years ago or not if you look at it in terms of Native Americans.

Wow, thanks thanks thanks for posting that. Sometimes I feel like I can alleviate my guilt about by colour privilege by saying "Well, my family wasn't here when slavery/subjugation of Native Americans/ all the other horrible instances occured."

But that's just not true. Not only because so much subjugation of minorities has occured just in the 20th century, and is still occuring today, but that we're still benifiting from it.

theriverpiedra,
I'm Australian and have never been to North America so this is observation is based on casual consumption of pop culture and also what I've encountered online but I agree with you and have noticed that Native American issues aren't often taken as seriously during discussion on racism and racist representations of Native Americans are still seen as acceptable in some quarters. Even in right-on communities that pride themselves on their anti racism.
Even places like here. :(

Naivete had put up some very informative threads in regards to Native American history & genocide that have unfortunately been deleted.

All I found was these which covers some issues..
http://www.girl-mom.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5023
http://www.girl-mom.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5347

Heh, Maja this is the thread I wanted to link to the aboriginal genocide thread as well. Thank you guys for bringing up the native americans in regard to racial oppression, it IS something that very often gets overlooked as it's not contained in any mainstream education. It's a history that's very much hidden. Why? Because it happened here, with this government, and I think it's something they don't want to ever own up to. It's something that also very much happens to this day and is excused, whereas with many other races, it wouldn't be. The thread was accidentally deleted recently, and I'm currently working on developing a new one - but until then if anyone wants some more information regarding the history of native americans and the genocide throughout America and Canada, feel free to PM me.

hey naivete,

if you need any help reconstructing your thread (I read the old one a long time ago but can't remember exactly what was in it) I have literally huge amounts of information sitting next to me about the Carlyle schools, massacres of NAs at white hands, et cetera. you're doing a really awesome job on here getting info out and and encouraging people to deconstruct their preconceptions of Natives. let me know if you want help!

maja-

thanks for linking the other two in here. and yeah, it just gets under my skin when natives are left out of the racism discussion.

I think it'd be great to add any new information to the thread, adding other resources and information will just add new education, thanks for the offer. Do you have any online resources that you could email me? I'm not sure how it would work if the information you have is all hard-copy.

I think the history is something everyone should know. It outrages me that it was never taught to me in any mainstream public school. It generally skims over the entire period, and creates the conclusion that we all lived happily ever after, after the peaceful joining of our men and our lands. To the point where the entire country celebrates Columbus and the pilgrims, ignorantly unknowing of what really happened. It's something that haunts my family, and has destroyed quite a few people in my relations who experienced it firsthand at it's worse.

I probably won't start creating the new thread until February, I have a ton of work that needs done this week. If you have any online resources I could check out to see if any new information is available, please PM me and I'll keep in touch, as well as throw you some credit when the new thread is up and running :)

Thanks!

I'm betting most of the information I have can also be found online, minus a speech by woman forced into a Carlyle school, and that I'd be glad to scan or type up.

I'm pretty busy as well so a little time is good! I'll PM you this weekend with my online resources, as well as copying and pasting information from my school's databases that I think you'd need a password to access.