I'm an intactivist; my goal is to get any pregnant woman in my vicinity or whom I come into contact with, to take a second guess when it comes to circumcision. I'll use respectful terms when talking about this, because I don't want a debate. I don't judge women who have already circumcised their children, I really don't. Most women circumcise because the resources just aren't out there. I too, was strongly thinking about circ'ing Trey at birth, because no one had ever told me otherwise, or given me the resources to educate myself on the subject; I understand the ignorance around it. Doctors and nurses don't come out and tell you what's really up, they just ask you: yes or no. I was jolted to reality by a rude comment which made me realize how ignorant I was on the subject, and I spent hours looking it up. My goal is NOT to make women who have made the choice feel badly about it, my goal is to try and convince other women to reconsider it if they're expecting a little boy. Please leave this as a resource, a purely informational page: no drama, no debate. I'll use respectful terms, if I can have that from your guys' side, just leave it for resources, no debate. I spent hours on this, since my last circ resource thread was accidentally deleted, trying to rebuild it, recreate it. So alas, here it is.
- Myths & Facts About Infant Circumcision:
Myth: Unmyelinated nerves do not transmit pain.
Fact: Not only do unmyelinated nerves transmit pain, they transmit the most excruciating kind of pain.Myth: Babies don’t feel pain because some of their nerves have not become myelinated.
Fact: Babies do feel pain, especially since they have more unmyelinated nerves than adults.Myth: Local Anasthetic makes the circumcision painless.
Fact: Injecting the anaesthetic into the genital area is painful for the baby. Because the anaesthetic wears off soon, the postoperative pain that lasts for days is just as bad for a baby who had anaesthetic than for one who had none. Most circumcisions, anaesthetic is not used at all.Myth: Circumcision prevent urinary tract infections, HIV or other STD’s.
Fact: Cleanliness and proper hygiene should be routine - not circumcision. Actually, it is rarely documented that the rate of infection in circumcised infants is much higher during the diaper stages when the healing glans is exposed to feces and urine.Myth: A baby’s intact penis is harder to keep clean and take care of than a circumcised penis.
Fact: Because of the extra care that one must take in caring for and bathing a circumcision wound that is in the process of healing, and because of the frequent complications such as meatal ulcers that occur in circumcised penises, the intact infant penis is actually much easier to care for. It basically needs no care, no retraction, no nothing. An intact penis is very much self-cleaning.Myth: Male family members will have psychological problems if some have circumcised penises and others have intact penises.
Fact: Boys and Dads do NOT need matching penises. Circumcision has become a cycle in our culture; one that needs to be broken. Removal of a functioning part of a child's body violates human rights, goes against medical ethics and ultimately damages men.When the English abruptly stopped circumcising most of its population, there were no psychological problems reported about the circumcised fathers and intact sons.
-Julia Bertschinger, CCE, in Midwifery Today Issue 17Myth: Boys will get made fun of in the locker room if they aren’t circumcised!
Fact: With routine infant circumcision down to 59% of newborn boys, hey that leaves a whole 41% of boys staying intact. The number of routine infant circumcisions are steadily dropping anyways Your son would NOT be alone.Myth: It’s only a piece of skin, it’s not that important.
Fact:
"A piece of skin the size of a quarter
contains more than three million cells, 12
feet of nerves, 100 sweat glands, 50 nerve
endings, and almost three feet of blood vessels."- The Human Connection
Ashley Montagu and Floyd Matson
McGraw-Hill, 1979 - One of the main points: Circumcision is NOT MEDICALLY NECESSARY. You can find the American Academy of Pediatrics’ press release HERE, stating that there is no medical reason whatsoever for routine circumcision; it is a cosmetic procedure. Many Doctors/Surgeons won’t even perform infant circumcision, and many insurance companies won’t cover it as it’s considered cosmetic. All myths surrounding the medical aspects of circumcision have been debunked; they’re just not true.
- Many men who’ve been circumcised against their will, take it upon themselves to restore their foreskin through many ways; all of which are painful, extensive, expensive and would have been completely unnecessary if the mother had decided against routine circumcision. One way is a surgical restoration, which involves taking skin grafts from somewhere else on the body and recreating a foreskin around the penis. Another way is a device sold, which men hook onto the tiny bit of skin they have left there, and spend years wearing this contraption in an effort to naturally stretch the skin to recreate their own foreskin.
- Intact penises are incredibly easy to clean. The foreskin is there for a purpose. There’s no need for retraction, scrubbing, special measures. The foreskin is attached to the gland for most of childhood and should naturally retract on it’s own, anywhere from 2 years of age, to 6-7 years of age. Until then, you just have to wash it as you would wash your sons elbow. A quick sudsing, a rinse, and you’re done. The foreskin naturally protects the glans, and is very self-cleaning. Circumcision shouldn’t be used to prevent UTI’s, proper hygiene should.
- The biggest key to me, is that Circumcision is a Definite Human Rights Violation. If your son chooses to remove his foreskin when he’s of age, then that’s great and an easy fix; but on the other hand, if he chooses to have it BACK, it’s damn near impossible. You lose nothing by leaving it alone. He’s not consenting to the surgery, and the parents should NOT have a right to force him into it. It’s not your body, it’s not your baby’s daddy’s body, it’s your son’s body.
- Compare it to Female Genital Mutilation. How would you feel if someone suggested that if your daughter was born with too large labia, that you should cut them off to prevent UTI’s in the future? It’s routine in a lot of countries, to circumcise female babies. It’s funny how something so similar is labelled mutilation, whereas circumcision is still so widely accepted. It’s the same thing. You’re removing a perfectly functioning part of someone else’s body without their consent in both cases. Would you pay someone to surgically remove your daughter’s labia? Or would you educate her on proper hygiene, and smack that person for even suggesting it?
- Religion. You don’t follow every aspect of your religion, do you? Point is, many people in many religions are opposing or delaying routine circumcision; either doing away with it entirely, or waiting until the child is old enough to decide for himself.
- Circumcision is not a loving welcome into the world.
What Happens During a Circumcision? (Warning. This contains graphic pictures of a routine infant circumcision. Probably not the best to look at if you’re at work.) These pictures is what actually happens during a circumcision. What happens during a circumcision is so graphic that many doctors (Docs Against Circ) and nurses (Nurses Against Circ) take part in one, and refuse to ever go back in. - Still Not Sure? Order a Video which shows every part of a routine infant circumcision procedure. Hell, if after all this you’re still considering circumcision and can’t afford the video, please PM me and I’ll buy the video FOR you. (Don’t ask me to if you’re just curious to see it, seriousness only please, the videos 20 bucks).
- Want somewhere to go to, to further discuss infant circumcision? Please join the LJ community The Unkindest Cut. This community contains mothers of circ’d boys, mothers of uncirc’d boys, men who are going through restoration, and a whole lot of people who are knowledgeable as hell and welcoming to all who wish to learn more, help spread the word, or just chat.
Or check out Mothers Against Circumcision.
- Has your son been WRONGLY circumcised? Can’t find a lawyer who will take a circumcision case?
Attorneys for the Rights of the Child
Law Office of David J. Llewelyn (Wrongful Circumcision Attorney)
Take action.
That’s it. If you reading this, have any other questions, need other links, resources, etc, or just want to talk about it, please, please, please feel free to PM me, and I’ll be MORE then glad to help.
Much love to you all, and I leave you with some resources:
List of Resources:
Circumcision Information and Resource Pages - http://www.cirp.org
NOCIRC (National Organization of Circumcision Resource Centers) - http://www.nocirc.org
Stop Infant Circumcision Society - http://www.stopinfantcircumcision.org
NORM (National Organization of Restoring Men) - http://www.norm.org
NORM-UK - http://www.norm-uk.org
Doctors Opposing Circumcision - http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC
Foreskin - http://www.foreskin.org
Ashley Montagu Resolution and Petition - http://montagunocircpetition.org
Circumcision Resource Center - http://www.circumcision.org
Female Genital Cutting Education and Networking Project - http://www.fgmnetwork.org
Attorneys for the Rights of the Child - http://www.arclaw.org
Law Office of David J. Llewelyn (wrongful circumcision attorney) - http://firms.findlaw.com//llewellynlaw/practices.htm
Circumcision Quotes - http://www.circumcisionquotes.com
BoysToo - http://www.boystoo.com
In Memory of the Sexually Mutilated Child - http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org (warning for disrespectful talk)
Intactivism Pages - http://www.circumstitions.com
International Coalition for Genital Integrity - http://www.icgi.org
Mothers Against Circumcision - http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org
Jews Against Circumcision - http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org
Catholics Against Circumcision - http://www.catholicsagainstcircumcision.org
Circumcised at 13 - http://www.jusay.com/circ13
History of Circumcision - http://www.historyofcircumcision.net
Circumcision Information Australia - circinfo.org
Intersex Society of North America - http://www.isna.org
Intersex Initiative - http://www.intersexinitiative.org
Students for Genital Integrity - http://www.studentsforgenitalintegrity.org
Musicians United to Stop Infant Circumcision - http://www.musiciansunited.org
Nurses for the Rights of the Child - http://www.nurses.cirp.org
Intact - http://www.intact.ca
Sex As Nature Intended It - http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com
StopCirc - http://www.stopcirc.com
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Thank you so much for that! Wish I had all that infomation at my hands when I was pregnant with my boys.
your so great hun!
Thanks to you I'm not going to be giving my son a circumcision. :D
Thanks for the informative post, naivete. it was well written, respectful, covered all bases of the issues.
Can this be a sticky?
sure, maja, will do!
Me either! I never knew that not circumcising my son was really an option before I talked with Naivete about it.
Steph & YoungMom90: Sorry the resources I gave you guys before this thread weren't as in depth. I had a full page of links on hand, but had forgotten to write down what each page contained as I was looking for resources, but I'm glad I got this page up in time. I'm glad I helped, much love to you both.
Reading over your post makes me SO glad I decided to not give my son the cut. I feel VERY pleased with my decision.
I banned a member earlier today for, well, being a man. I sent him an email explaining why we keep this a women-only safe space, and he was apologetic and respectful, but asked that I post this information (I believe what he was referring to was this thread):
DEAR ERIKA,
Thanks for your return message, and my humblest apologies. I feel like I just
wandered into the ladies room accidently! I genuinely respect your group's
wishes for privacy. You should note I stumbled in by googling the words "history
of circumcision."
I only wanted to post a couple of corrections on your otherwise very
informative and principled site, for which I thank you sincerely.
The small criticism (and understand, I deeply admire your piece) was:
1) The intact boy's foreskin should NEVER be washed with soap, as doctors
used to recommend. Such cleaning, and the flora imbalance it causes, is the
source of the smell women say they dislike about intact men. Clean too much and it
gets worse.
Aggressive cleaning is also the source of the myth that 'he'll only need
cirumcision later if you don't do it now." Doctors encouraged forcible retraction
and aggressive cleaning years ago. Both result in bleeding, infections,
non-retractile foreskins, scarring, and eventually a recommendation of
circumcision. Our physician group believes this may have been done intentionally--to
guarantee repeat medical fees, at the expense of the boy.
BTW--AVoiding excessive cleaning is the same caution women are given--disturb
the natural flora and you get a succession of flora imbalances and unusual
odors. That is why it is bad for women to douche--they will be obliged to keep
doing so, having killed off their natural flora, as you will know well.
Warm water is all the is required for either gender, no sudsing, no foaming,
no soap. The tip of the intact boy is no more in need of cleaning than the
urethral meatus of an intact girl and just as painful if it gets inside. Urine
which is sterile is all the cleaning that is needed.
SECOND--No physician who is reputable and knowledgable is recommending
surgical foreskin restoration for circumcised men. It is impossible to graft this
tissue, which like the eyelid is double-sided, mucosal one side, cutaneuous the
other. Any graft of normal skin would bond to the internal structure and be
unable to slide or articulate. It would also have no useful innervation. A
famous case, Shane Peterson of Australia got $500,000 from the doctors who did
this, fraudulently, to him.
Non-surgical restoration we recommend heartily. You may refer interested
women to
http://foreskinrestorationchat.info/jfaq.html
if they would like to see my thoughts on the subject.
IF YOU FEEL IT IS APPROPRIATE, PLEASE TELL YOUR READERS THAT WE AT DOCTORS
OPPOSING CIRCUMCISION PROVIDE FREE ADVICE ON CIRCUMCISION, RESTORATION AND OTHER
TOPICS IF THEY NEED IT, GRATIS OF COURSE. I PROVIDE FREE LEGAL ADVICE AS
WELL. ALWAYS AVAILABLE.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR LINK TO D.O.C. TOO.
Best of Luck to you all,
John V. Geisheker, JD, LL.M.
Atty at Law
General Counsel,
Doctors Opposing Circumcision
That's great that he added all that :)
Thanks, John. I didn't know that about the soap, and how soap is actually discouraged. I had thought I learned just about everything on the subject, but I guess there's always room for more learning :)
However, I disagree about the surgical restoration bit. I know a man personally who underwent surgical restoration. I know quite a few who underwent nonsurgical restoration, but only one who opted for surgical skin grafts. From what I've told, it's working pretty well for him.
I read a study from a friends journal a few days ago about a man who had his entire member reconstructed from other bone, tissue, etc, after he lost his own in an accident. An interview with him said it worked so well he was able to still father two children after the matter. Surgical may not always be the best choice, and it may be hard to find a doctor who would do it, but it is possible.
Wow this was some great info put in simple words. I wanted to circumsice my son so badly when he was born. The Dr.s were gonna do it the day I was getting released, and I couldn't him through it. I have contimplated getting it done on him though, but after this I feel totally comfortable with not having it done. I AM SO HAPPY THE DR.S TOOK SO LONG TO DO IT!
Wanted to throw in here, that there's a new video out called "Whose Body, Whose Rights? - Examining the Ethics and the Human Rights Issue of Infant Male Circumcision"
It boldly and responsibly addresses these vital issues long overdue for inner reflection and cultural self-examination:
You can watch a free 1.5 minute excerpt online, purchase a copy of the DVD or VHS, or purchase a years worth of viewing rights online.
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saw this thread and figured you might appreciate these. I was bored one day so just played arond with PSP.
doh
I forgot to put the link to the video
http://www.circumcisionvideos.com/wbwr.htm
There's where you can learn more about the Whose Body, Whose Rights video on circumcision.
Jamie - those are great, thanks for sharing :)
Thanks for all the information, You're fantastic! There was so mush information that I had never even heard!
I'll leave my baby intact, and perfect if it's a boy.... Like his dad! My dad thinks it should be done, but my mom has always thought it was ridiculous! In our hospital you have to pay to have the procedure done, as a deterent. And only one Dr. on staff will do it.
In my case its the father who is wanting to have it done if it is a boy.
His is done, and said he has never had an infection or anything at all....Not to mention, he cant remember being that young. my mother also works with a lot of children, and shes seem quite a few young boys get infections, and need to have it done later in life, where it is a lot more traumatic.
As comparing it to female circumscion in Africa...thats an unfair comparison, because generally it is done when the girl reaches about 9 years old. Its usually done in a hut, or behind a bush with a dull razor or sharp rock. The idea behind it is to make sex un-pleasurable for the women...and really has nothing to do with cleanliness or infection...infact, in most cases there is little to no antiseptic used, and the girl is prone to infections for the rest of her life.
http://www.members.tripod.com/~Wolvesdreams/FGM.html
theres a link about it there...im not trying to anger people, and im really sorry if i offended anyone its just....What they do to girls in Africa is horribly disgusting, and i dont think its fair to compare it to a practice that is done 1. before the boy can remeber 2. with the use of antiseptic, and local anestetic and 3. really has no affect on the mans sex drive (there are claims that it makes it better, i dont know how true those are).
I think that circumcising a young baby is VERY traumatic and VERY painful. Just because he won't remember it doesn't mean that it is less traumatic. In fact, it probably makes a much deeper impression on him that early in life. It is very unusual for a boy or man to get an infection bad enough to need a circumcision for. In almost all cases, you would treat it as you would any infection. I couldn't imagine causing that kind of pain in my infant.
My infant son was cut and had HORRIBLE infections for 6 months. Will he remember those infections? No. Will I ever forget what his penis looked like and the look of agony on my newborn's face because of a cosmetic procedure? No. Never. I still want to cry when I change his diaper and he'll be 2 soon. I regret that I wasn't aware enough to stop him being cut.
There is a theoretical chance a child may need to me circ'd later in life, a very small chance. I would rather not welcome another child of mine into the world with a traumatic surgery without anethesia.
I'm saying this to you as a mother who deeply regrets what was done to her son. Please reconsider.
My oldest son was one of the VERY VERY few boys who had an actual medical reason for a circumcision (the skin at the end of his foreskin was way too tight and he couldn't urinate properly). It was really sad because I never dreamed he would ever have to go through that. When he was three he had the procedure, and I truly believe it was less tramtic than doing it at birth. 1. he has asleep for it 2. he could have some pain medicine 3. I think most importantly he was old enough to at least kind of be prepared for it, and we could explain what was happening.
Honestly seeing how hard it was for Cy made me really wish that no baby, would have to go through it unless it was completely nessasary. My youngest son is NOT circumcised.
Needing it done for medical reasons can happen, but it IS very rare. Doing it anyways just to prevent the 'what if' some day isn't the best way to go. What causes infections? A lot of the times, either underlying medical issues which would be there with or without circumcision, or hygiene. These are the reasons why the American Academy of Pediatrics now goes against routine circumcision, and has issued a statement saying that the myth that circumcision prevents infections, is just that, a myth. The AAP has stated "it is NOT MEDICALLY NECESSARY". At all.
Actually there's more risk of infection with a circumcised penis, because instead of being protected with a piece of skin that's there to protect it, it's an open wound. An open wound which is covered in urine every day, I can't even begin to imagine how much that would hurt, let alone how many infections that could cause.
More often then not, I see problems with circumcision happening because the foreskin tries to reattach itself, and needs to be torn apart again.
I think they are very comparable. The methods are different, but you're still removing a piece of skin from a baby who cannot give his consent for the procedure. It's going against his basic human rights and forcing him to alter his body without his permission.
And, by the way, very very few doctors use anasthesia during the procedure. I had a website with statistics for that, but I lost the paper it was on, but it was something like only 8% of doctors use any sort of anasthesia during a circumcision procedure.
And, by the way, please follow what I put in the original post:
You want to argue logistics, please create your own thread for it and leave it out of this one.
Thanks for all the information girls, before reading this thread I just thought circumsicion was something everyone just did without thinking. If this baby turns out to be a boy (and I do plan to find out the sex) I will definitly take all this into consideration and think twice!
:D
My son isn't circumsized. But I routinely hear from family members and friends all the shit myths that were listed in the original post.
"They will torture him in the locker room."
"He will get so many infections."
"Girls won't want to sleep with him."
"Why the hell didn't you get him circumsized? Ewww!"
I must admit I become very self-concious when they say that kind of shit to me. But overall I'm happy with my decision.
The first time I dated an uncut man, I thought it was more interesting and neat than disgusting, like everyone else always claims. I guess I have bigger and more important things to worry about than the look of an uncut penis.
I find interesting that so many people have strong point of view ether way on issue as this.
In Russia I know of no men circumzied, except jews and muslims, but in Australia seems about 50%
I'm not to sure if it makes too much of difference ether way, and in the end parents do what they think is best.
thank you for the info my son was circumcised at one day old awww no wonder i could hear him cry while i was in my room. cry
Just wanted to say thanks to all the great info on here, I made up my mind to leave my son intact..although I face opposition from my family and my fiance's, and he wanted it done, ultimately my fiance agreed to let me make the call.. I just couldn't justify subjecting him to a painful procedure that had no significant medical benefit.
baby's gender
baby05.narod.ru
!!!
I wish I had found that while I was pregnant. I debated it on my own and asked BD. He wanted it done so I went with it. I could have shown him this.
thanks for all of the information, i'm always up for education on any subject.
my son was circumcised and i don't regret it. he cried during but stopped with a bottle and had no post-pain at all. i remember i couldn't sleep that night because i was just expecting him to wake up in unbearable pain and i wanted to be there to comfort him...but nothing, and he woke up the next morning happy as ever. he never got an infection and was completely healed after a week.
that was just our experience, i'm not encouraging or discouraging it...i think it's a choice every mother has to make and it is your own. i definitely think that whatever choice you make, you should be educated before doing so and this is a great thread for that purpose, thanks naivete it's obvious how much work you put into this.
Thanks Naivete and others for this resource, because of this my son wasn't circumcised. We've already gotten disapproval from both sides of the family but are also happy to inform them of the reasons behind our choice.
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