High court: Juvenile death penalty unconstitutional

I haven't had time to read the rest of the article, but that's GREAT!

I see it as a step towards getting it outlawed altogether.

I agree. I think any death penalty is pretty unconstitutional, because its VERY hypocritical, but this is a big step in the right direction.

I hate the death peanalty so this is a start!!

word!

Totally, how barbaric is it to be killing people in the first place, much less children/young adults and mentall ill people? Our justice system is so fucked up-- the fact that they even had to make this a law is fucked up. It makes me SO angry!

what do you guys think about the fact that had he been a little older, he would be facing death? I think we've seen here that there's very little difference between 17 and 18. I call bullshit at the idea that in the year, or even matter of months or days that may exist between a killer and his 18th birthday, the knowledge of "oh, murder is wrong!" would set in. I think the totally arbitrary nature of the age limit proves that the death penalty as a whole needs to be seriously re-evaluated. I'm not unilaterally opposed to do the death penalty, there are some cases where, although I couldn't set it into action as a member of a jury, I don't bat an eye at the idea that one complete piece of shit has been removed from the planet. If there were a way to guard against the racism and classism of the current system, I can't say I'd vote it all the way out. I know if someone were to hurt or kill one of my loved ones, I would want them dead, whether by my hand or that of the government. I don't think I could take that option away from a grieving family. (there is news footage somewhere of a baby Dylan strapped to my side as I march and chant "break the needle! smash the chair! the death penalty is unfair!" these days though, the death penalty is one of those issues that i'm not incredibly passionate about, and i've actually felt myself slipping into a bit more middle ground an opinion. i hope i'm not falling into the oft-cited "conservative in your old age" quote..eek)

The juvenile justice system as I've seen it is pretty fucked. I read a book recently called "No Matter How Loud I Shout" about the juvenile justice system in California. The book was from the 90s, so I'm hoping there's been reform since then. In the book, boys over 16 were facing life sentences for armed robberies, but a 15 year old who shot his married employers execution style from the backseat was only going to get ten years, with his records sealed when he got out. We need a complete overhaul of the juvenile and adult justice systems. Prison reform has never really been my thing, so I don't know what all they're advocating, but I'd like to see longer sentences, with less options for early release, for violent crime, probation or rehab for drug offenders, and a shit load of community service and lifetime maximum wages for white-collar criminals.

I agree with you, Julie, that there is very little difference between 17 and 18. It's an arbitrary line set by the government so that they can say "OK, this is when you become "responsible" for your actions." That's all.
But you know what? I don't see this as a "Yay! Now all the kids won't get executed!" I see this as "Yay! less people will be executed."

I am completely anti-capital punishment.

I understand that sentiment, but I don't completely agree with that. I know that there is a fierce need for retribution, but I think that, like some other base emotions that humans sometimes feel, it should be acknowledged, but not acted upon.

Plus, why should there be two grieving families?

I stand by my belief that no one has the right to decide for another human whether they should live or die. Not a murderer, and not the Government.

Yeah I agree about the fewer people being executed comment. Well said Sphinx.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.

I completly agree with astrogirl. I am completely against the death penalty.
Our society has absolutly no reason why it should be killing people. In my mind if someone has done something so horrible they desurve to be killed, there's something wrong with them. People don't act that way under good, normal conditions. If there's something wrong with them, it's not right to kill them.
If it is impossible to rehabilitate them into a healther mindset, so they could function in society without being a danger to themselves or others, then keeping them in a facility for the rest of their lives, with supervision and care that they need is the way to go.

I have always been very much against the death penalty. Recently I watched a documentary about Aileen Wuornos and it made me think a little differently. theres a lot of people on death row who truly want to die, to get it over with. What contributions are they making to society locked up for the rest of their lives, ashamed of what they have done, living with their bad decisions, going insane if they werent already? If they want to die then let them die, sometimes its crueler to keep them alive, waiting around on death row for years and years. Theoretically i dont agree with the death penalty and I know that its corrupted with racism and classism. the poor ones are the ones who are put to death, 9 times out of 10. I've read a lot of interesting articles about families finding forgiveness for the person on death row who shot their family member, and even forming some kind of relationship with that person based on forgiveness.
At the same time, I think that if someone hurt or did anything to my daughter I would instinctively want to murder them myself. I dont know, those are my (very) jumbled thoughts on the death penalty.

about the original topic though, i think thats great, like you said astrogirl it's a START. it's progress.

Just because some of the people on death row want to die does not mean that it is our place to pass that kind of judgement on them. I am completely against the death penalty, and I think it is shocking that there is a death penalty for people who are still treated as CHILDREN in this society. You can't vote, drink, make your own decisions, but you can be put on death row. What about all those people who were wrongly convicted? What about the racism/social/economical issues? We just can not afford to have that kind of power in the hands of human beings, who by nature have biases and make mistakes.

I KNOW that! I'm just saying that it made me see things from a different perspective. Im still against the death penalty, i'm just saying that I had never really thought about it from that angle. Please dont start telling me the reasons why the death penalty is wrong, anyone. I do not support the death penalty.

Sorry that seemed directed at your post Julesmama, it was hypothetical. It's just what I was thinking after reading the thread. :D

I'm sorry if that came out in a rude way MamaButterfly. Its frustrating when you're trying to explain something and you can't get the words quite right.

I am undecided about my feelings on the death penalty, but I do agree that juvenile offenders should not be punished as adults and given death penalties when they do not have the same rights as adults in our society. I am uncomfortable with the idea that, on one hand, people under 18 are viewed as children in the eyes of the law, but on the other hand, they can be sentenced as adults at a whim, while still being considered children by society.

I wanted to respond to this comment, but I don't want to change the direction of the thread.

Also be aware that what I say here might be triggering.
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**VIOLENCE TRIGGER**

I used to stop my discussion of the death penalty at the fact that it's racist and classist, I think because I didn't really want to see where my feelings would go if I removed those variables.

Sphinx, quoting me said
"
Quote:
I know if someone were to hurt or kill one of my loved ones, I would want them dead, whether by my hand or that of the government. I don't think I could take that option away from a grieving family.

I understand that sentiment, but I don't completely agree with that. I know that there is a fierce need for retribution, but I think that, like some other base emotions that humans sometimes feel, it should be acknowledged, but not acted upon. "

But what about when it transcends just retribution? When it's not just involuntary eye for an eye behavior? I feel very strongly that knowing the person who sadistically killed my girlfriend (to use her as an example since i can't even go there with my kid) was alive, sometimes feeling happy, occasionally having his favorite prison meal, maybe even jerking off in the prison shower to the image of whatever it was he did to her, would seriously compound my grief and prevent my healing. And yes, some of it is retribution, but it doesn't feel base level. It feels like it comes out of the unique capacity of humans to form intense bonds, hold memories long after someone or some thing is gone, and to fear or inquire about what happens after our deaths. If someone can send someone I love into where ever it is we go after death, an unknowable place that scares the shit out of me, then I want them to know that fear too. If that makes me vengeful or bad, then so be it, but this feeling doesn't come from a place of ignorance about the death penalty in any way. If someone comes to me after the brutal death of their child, I'll hand them an electric chair on a silver platter if it will reduce their pain one iota, because i can't in good conscience put the rights of a killer over the needs and wants of the grieving family. And if not, that's their choice too, and I'll stand up with them and shout against a death sentence. I suppose I don't think it's my place to decide one way or the other about executing violent killers, since it's all just speculation on my part thus far.

This is something I've been thinking about alot lately. I see no difference on this site between mothers that are 17 or 18. According to society, though, there is this magical change and you become wise to the ways of the world. Although I disagree with the death penalty, I think one should be fully able to grasp the severity and permanence of death at 17. If that realization is not possible at 17, one more birthday will do nothing to change that.

I'm not exactly sure why, but we become "adults" much later in life now. 50 years ago, it was commonplace for men and women to have families and houses under the age of 21. I'm not saying we should all strive for that, but why is 18 all of a sudden to young to take on normal adult responsibilities? Has the four-year college dorming experience contributed? We used to have 17 year old adults and now we have 23 year old kids...

I'm on a tangent now and I think this is all for another thread..

I read what you said, Julie, and (again, not wanting to hijack the thread) you know what? I don't know what I think. I'm feeling a lot of rights are coming into conflict here and SOMEHOW we have to find a "happy" medium. I see the right for a person to live, and the right for a greiving family's closure. I currently can't put a priority on one or the other. Any person, for me, who takes the life of another is commiting a grave violation of the laws of the universe. All the more, again, if it's done in a brutal manner, as you described Julie.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand what you're saying, and I don't know how to answer those questions right now. Currently, I'm still sticking to my "no exceptions...death penalty is wrong" philosophy...but I'm going to be thinking on it.

I think that conflecting emotions are totally valid in debates like this. I speak from the position (thank god) of not having someone violently and horribly taken from my life through the act of someone else.
And Julie- you spoke very eloquently on those feelings. I wanted to kill, actually kill, the man who hit my car when I thought that Zoe might have been a little bit hurt. But--

Someone who would go out of their way to seriously hurt/kill/rape, etc. someone is *not* right in the head. I do NOT believe that it is human nature to be overtly violent for no reason, nor do I think that the violent side that we have is not something that we can't overcome.
I can not, even in thinking about someone harming my child, or my mom, see myself --- let me rephrase this. I CAN see myself wanting the person who would dare to lay a hand on my family members killed, dead, gone. However, that does not mean that I would advocate for it to happen- if that makes sense. Yes, I would want them dead- no, I wouldn't want the state to be in charge of killing them.
I believe, even if we had a *perfect* justice system, that I can not condone the state sanctioned killing of people; even without the variables that make our justice system so fucked up, killing someone because of an action they took as a direct result of mental health issues is not ok. For someone to do something so serious that they are considered for the death penalty, and their guilty of it, they have to have mental health issues.

I think its one thing to debate the merits of the death penalty for people that definitely, certainly, did the thing they are on death row for, but what about those that are wrongly convicted? There are lots of examples of people convicted and put in prison and 5, 10, 20 years later they get a new trial and it turns out they weren't guilty in the first place. Especially with the rise of DNA evidence. For me, I can't agree with the death penalty solely on the fact that it does kill innocent people. For them, it doesn't matter if new evidence comes up later, its too late.