Same with roseries. I know a lot of people who wore them to be cool.
This is something I always wondered about. I want to buy one because I think rosaries are beautiful - but they would hold no religious significance to me.
The catholics I know have no problem with me buying one.. they don't find it offensive. I wouldn't wear it.. I just think the really intricate ones are a great display of craftsmanship. But I don't want to offend anyone by owning it just to own it.
I personally don't agree with getting other languages tattooed on you if you don't speak the language or have deep roots to it. I think it's funny though, how many people think they have something tattooed on them and it turns out to either not make any sense, or be something completely different.
I haven't commented on this thread yet, but here's my cheap 2 cents. I don't agree with PWOC having dreads. I just don't. You can throw as many "but I don't MEAN to offend"'s as you want at me, and I still won't agree with it. I know people who it bothers deeply, and to me, that's enough.
I think the line draws at what's important to people. Shirt styles like you mentioned don't have significant meaning to the people who the style originated from.
Dreads do.
To me, appropriating dreadlocks if you are not of the culture, would be the same as a white person running around in a headdress because it looked cool.
Word to rebex on if people are trying to understand or trying to invalidate to make themselves feel better. I see a whole bunch of people who shouldn't get a say on if what they're doing is offensive, defending the fact that they're not being offensive. Of course no one MEANS to be offensive or culturally appropriating, but it's not up to you to decide whether it's offensive, it's up to the culture you're taking things from.
Some wouldn't care - some do deeply.
Is something as trivial as a hair style really worth it risking offending someone with cultural appropriation?
You may not have meant to offend, but it still can.
The fact that you're saying that you as a privileged white person, having the hairstyle you want is more important, oh, racially oppressed people saying it's offensive, is even more oppressive.
It's like being called out, do you go on defending that you're right, or do you learn from people who are telling you differently?
It's really up to you in the end.
I'd never say to someone unless they brought it up first, that it was offensive, but since you asked outright you should be able to hear the answer, yes I do find the fact that you have dreads to be culturally appropriating. I also find the fact that you're putting a higher importance on you having the hair you want, over people saying it's oppressive, to be offensive.
The fact that you're saying that you as a privileged white person, having the hairstyle you want is more important, oh, racially oppressed people saying it's offensive, is even more oppressive.
should say having the hairstyle you want is more important THAN, oh, ...
I am listening to what everyone is saying about it. I wasn't the one who asked in the first place. I also said nothing about being more priveledged or that I had a more right to have my hair like this. I don't think I am above anyone on having my hair this way.
so would it be considered cultural appropriation for african american people to straighten their hair, since one could argue that it isnt their culture to have straight hair. This could be taken really far. Our culture borrows from other people's cultures, what if someone said that no one could pierce their ears anymore because slave owners pierced their slaves ears. What if i said it offends me to see people have tattoos on their forarms because I have ancestors that died in concentration camps. If a man chooses to wear his hair long, is that cultural appropriation of native people? Or women?
And yes Rebex i did read Kats thread.
So since I have had dreads for the past year... does that make me racist? No, I don't think it does at all. I didn't do it to be trendy.
You did ask, whether or not you were the original asker.
And like I've said before, it's not up to you to decide if that's oppressive or racist.
And you don't NEED to mention your privilege, the fact that you're white makes you more privileged whether you say it or not.
And I didn't say you thought you were higher. I'm saying that by you defending your right to do it, even though you're now aware that it can be hurtful and furthering oppression of a marginalized group, that it's the impression it will give off anyway.
For a white person to fight racism, they have to acknowledge their own inherent racism which comes with being white. You can't just BE, and let other people be, and do what you want but not outright hurt or oppress, you also have to fight the system, to fight appropriation, and most importantly when it comes to racial topics, to listen to the minority because they're the ones who dealt with it, who experienced it. You can't just go with the flow, you have to fight against the waters.
I'm not attacking you Heather, you know I adore you and you're an amazing girl who does so much, I'm just saying that I don't agree with that particular aspect.
so would it be considered cultural appropriation for african american people to straighten their hair, since one could argue that it isnt their culture to have straight hair. This could be taken really far. Our culture borrows from other people's cultures, what if someone said that no one could pierce their ears anymore because slave owners pierced their slaves ears. What if i said it offends me to see people have tattoos on their forarms because I have ancestors that died in concentration camps. If a man chooses to wear his hair long, is that cultural appropriation of native people? Or women?
And yes Rebex i did read Kats thread.
You're not getting it.
Does straight hair have religious meaning to you as a white person, Sky?
Really now. You don't need to throw out outrageous examples to try and be "right".
I am not trying to be right, I am just trying to give examples of how it could be taken a little bit too far. I never said I believed any of those things. I did not realize that it was a religious thing although now that I go back and read it was mentioned several times. What is the religious aspect of it? I also wasn't aware that it was offensive to people, and I still havent seen a person actually say on this thread that having dreadlocks is offensive to them because of their religion. But dont people borrow other cultures all the time? I dont see how this is different than say, someone wearing a cross around their neck because they like it or something like that.
Anything can be taken too far if you try hard enough, but we're not talking about everything else, we're talking specifically about dreads.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part people who wear crosses aren't a racially oppressed people.
Dreads have religious connections to a RACE OF PEOPLE. It's not just religion, it's religion + race.
And seriously, on a left wing board you need someone that it directly affects to speak up about it? Who WOULD amongst all this defending of racial matters? It doesn't matter that rebex said "I have friends that it oppresses", and that I said "I have friends that it oppresses", you need someone to come on directly and say it?
And even though you said to rebex that you DID read katg's post, the answer you're looking for was right in there:
Dreadlocks are rooted in Rastafarianism, a pan-African spiritual/religious movement for healing and decolonization for Africa and African people worldwide. Rastafarianism is a form of resistance to a history of white racism, slavery, colonization and genocide.
Anything can be taken too far if you try hard enough, but we're not talking about everything else, we're talking specifically about dreads.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part people who wear crosses aren't a racially oppressed people.
Dreads have religious connections to a RACE OF PEOPLE. It's not just religion, it's religion + race.
And seriously, on a left wing board you need someone that it directly affects to speak up about it? Who WOULD amongst all this defending of racial matters? It doesn't matter that rebex said "I have friends that it oppresses", and that I said "I have friends that it oppresses", you need someone to come on directly and say it?
Other people have brought up other ways that there could be cultural appropriation throughout the thread.
I didnt realize that you had to be a racially oppressed person to be offended by cultural appropriation.
I never said that I needed someone that it directly affects but I was just saying that I havent seen anyone come here and say it directly affects them. Yeah rebex said and you said about your friend but it would be interesting to see an actual persons point of view instead of rebex or your interpretation of their views.
and thank you for pointing that out to me.
I am not trying to offend anyone I just honestly did not know that this offended anyone before like, today. So forgive me if I am not perfectly politcally correct.
Is it considered wrong for men to have long hair because of this:
Quote:
in the US and Canada Native children were forced to cut their hair and wear it like white peopleâs in âboardingâ or âresidentialâ schools created to destroy First Nations cultures.
Many, many non native cultures have had long hair in their history and there are many Native cultures who didn't. Although long hair does have spiritual connections in some Native cultures, it's not religious.
kats article is written by POC who are telling you their views.
why on earth would you think, especially after reading the insanity on this thread, that a POC would feel like they had to teach us anything when we clearly aren't listening very hard in the first place?
not many people are gunna come up to you and say "girl, yr hair is kinda offensive to me and my family. here's why." that kind of conversation usually needs a high degree of comfort that comes from a close, mutually respectful crosscultural relationship. ya know? if you aren't listening, or seem like you wouldn't listen, why would someone speak up to you?
its a social risk for someone to say they feel offended by what you said/did. especially when its a complex, subtle thing. its a privelege to recieve deep, critical feedback so that we can all grow to be better women. if we ignore it, that privelege rarely comes around again.
Is there a way for a poc to do cultural appropriation, like emeraldfirefly asked can an african american person who is not rastafarian and has dreadlocks be considered doing cultural appropriation or whatever? I am honestly curious because like I said I never heard of cultural appropriation until today :)
or if a native person has a mohawk? BD's step brother is native american and he has a mohawk. Would that be considered cultural appropriation or would it be embracing their culture, even if they arent doing it to embrace their culture?
I've been reading this thread and just wanted to jump in, with questions/comments regarding the mohawk.
I think I did realize that mowhawks comes from Native American culture, but recently it's associated with the Punk community.
Is there a reason why it was adapted there? The only time I do see a mohawk is in that situation.
I guess I'm just curious how the symbol/meaning of the mohawk shifted into the Punk community.
Dreadlocks have been around since the dawn of time. Ancient Egyptians wore them, ancient Asian emperor's wore them, cavemen wore them, even John the Baptist and Samson wore them.
The first writing we have about dreadlocks is in the Veda scriptures of India, the earliest piece is dated to 1800 BC. But many peoples and tribes have worn dreadlocks the Germanic tribes, the Greeks,Samson and other Nazorites, John the Baptist, the Pacific peoples, and the Naga Indians also wore dreadlocks. King Tut himself had dreadlocks, and they are still intact to this day. The Mau Mau tribe wore dreadlocks to intimidate the colonizers of Kenya in east Africa. Even Caesar claimed that the Celts wore dreadlocks by describing them as having "hair like snakes".
The actual word dreadlocks comes from Jamaica, made up in the early movement of the Rastamen, dreadlocks came from the word dread for the meaning of fear and horror.
Locks are now worn in India by Sadhus (holy men), the Somali, the Galla, the Maasai, the Mau Mau, the Kau, the Ashanti, the Fulani, the Aborigines, and the New Guineans.
this thread totally disappoints me. i see people using the "innocent" question tactic to not address what was being said, deflect the issues, and not take responsibility for privelege & cultural appropriation.
yes, i've seen the "history of dreads" website from a bunch of white hippies to justify why its really, really not culturally appropriating to POC to have white kid dreads.
ya know, do what you want with your hair, but at least KNOW that you WILL offend some people who see you as belittling their culture and history of fighting oppression. don't be ignorant about the issue, be upfront, own up to it, be willing to say "yah, i know that some POC will see this as culturally appropriating, but i've given it a lot of thought, and for xyz reason my personal style deserves to come first!" personally, i have yet to hear an xyz reason that is valid to me. if you can say that outloud to the mirror, go on with yr dreadlocked white girl self!
Very well put. I'm really disappointed here as well, I expected more.
Also no one seems to be actually reading the thread. The very same reply that Katg posted which was referred to MANY times in this thread for people to go back and actually READ, also mentioned why mohawks is Native American cultural appropriation.
I personally have only been bringing up similar questions or concerns because I don't understand the "other side's" perspective.
I am trying to learn, and I actually don't see anyone here going out of their way to be disrespectful. I honestly didn't know there was a spiritual/cultural mening behind dreads until this thread.
I have a decent concept of what cultural appropriation is, but its really not solid in my mind.
I'm sorry if anything I've said has deflected the conversation to other groups, or derailed the conversation, but I'm honestly trying to understand.
Is there a way for a poc to do cultural appropriation, like emeraldfirefly asked can an african american person who is not rastafarian and has dreadlocks be considered doing cultural appropriation or whatever? I am honestly curious because like I said I never heard of cultural appropriation until today :)
I think this goes back to the equation in the anti-racism FAQ:
Quote:
Racism = power + prejudice. Since "reverse racism" would require the victims of racism to have more power than the people who are being racist, it is a nonsensical phrase.
It is your body. Do whatever you want with it. I have read the entire thread and I can see where you guys are coming from, but I really don't think there is anything wrong with letting your hair dred if you think it is cute that way. Some people might be offended, but dreads are not a sacred thing that is limited to one group of people.
And most of you should run, not walk, to Social Justice and RE READ the anti racism FAQ to learn why your behavior is NOT OKAY.
I am so sick of seeing racism on these boards.
(And yes, a white person being oppressive then denying what they are doing is being oppressive, is racist.)
Also, the FAQ has a good blurb about why asking POC a bazillion questions and asking for education isn't the best thing either, as well as rebex put it:
Quote:
why on earth would you think, especially after reading the insanity on this thread, that a POC would feel like they had to teach us anything when we clearly aren't listening very hard in the first place?
Appropriating culture when you know better, is racist. Encouraging others to oppress minorities with cultural appropriation because OH HEY OUR FEELINGS DON'T MATTER, not as much as your hair does! is RACIST.
A whoooooooole bunch of you in this thread right now are being RACIST. You don't like that word? Don't think you are? TOUGH, because that's what it is, and I'm sick of racism being tip toed and accepted on boards that are supposed to be progressive and anti racist.
This is something I always wondered about. I want to buy one because I think rosaries are beautiful - but they would hold no religious significance to me.
The catholics I know have no problem with me buying one.. they don't find it offensive. I wouldn't wear it.. I just think the really intricate ones are a great display of craftsmanship. But I don't want to offend anyone by owning it just to own it.
does it go as far as tattoos?
I personally don't agree with getting other languages tattooed on you if you don't speak the language or have deep roots to it. I think it's funny though, how many people think they have something tattooed on them and it turns out to either not make any sense, or be something completely different.
I haven't commented on this thread yet, but here's my cheap 2 cents. I don't agree with PWOC having dreads. I just don't. You can throw as many "but I don't MEAN to offend"'s as you want at me, and I still won't agree with it. I know people who it bothers deeply, and to me, that's enough.
I think the line draws at what's important to people. Shirt styles like you mentioned don't have significant meaning to the people who the style originated from.
Dreads do.
To me, appropriating dreadlocks if you are not of the culture, would be the same as a white person running around in a headdress because it looked cool.
Word to rebex on if people are trying to understand or trying to invalidate to make themselves feel better. I see a whole bunch of people who shouldn't get a say on if what they're doing is offensive, defending the fact that they're not being offensive. Of course no one MEANS to be offensive or culturally appropriating, but it's not up to you to decide whether it's offensive, it's up to the culture you're taking things from.
Some wouldn't care - some do deeply.
Is something as trivial as a hair style really worth it risking offending someone with cultural appropriation?
(I think this bears repeating)
So since I have had dreads for the past year... does that make me racist? No, I don't think it does at all. I didn't do it to be trendy.
There's so many other things that can be cultural in appropriate...
I've brought up my hair before and no one said anything.
You may not have meant to offend, but it still can.
The fact that you're saying that you as a privileged white person, having the hairstyle you want is more important, oh, racially oppressed people saying it's offensive, is even more oppressive.
It's like being called out, do you go on defending that you're right, or do you learn from people who are telling you differently?
It's really up to you in the end.
I'd never say to someone unless they brought it up first, that it was offensive, but since you asked outright you should be able to hear the answer, yes I do find the fact that you have dreads to be culturally appropriating. I also find the fact that you're putting a higher importance on you having the hair you want, over people saying it's oppressive, to be offensive.
should say having the hairstyle you want is more important THAN, oh, ...
I am listening to what everyone is saying about it. I wasn't the one who asked in the first place. I also said nothing about being more priveledged or that I had a more right to have my hair like this. I don't think I am above anyone on having my hair this way.
so would it be considered cultural appropriation for african american people to straighten their hair, since one could argue that it isnt their culture to have straight hair. This could be taken really far. Our culture borrows from other people's cultures, what if someone said that no one could pierce their ears anymore because slave owners pierced their slaves ears. What if i said it offends me to see people have tattoos on their forarms because I have ancestors that died in concentration camps. If a man chooses to wear his hair long, is that cultural appropriation of native people? Or women?
And yes Rebex i did read Kats thread.
You did ask, whether or not you were the original asker.
And like I've said before, it's not up to you to decide if that's oppressive or racist.
And you don't NEED to mention your privilege, the fact that you're white makes you more privileged whether you say it or not.
And I didn't say you thought you were higher. I'm saying that by you defending your right to do it, even though you're now aware that it can be hurtful and furthering oppression of a marginalized group, that it's the impression it will give off anyway.
For a white person to fight racism, they have to acknowledge their own inherent racism which comes with being white. You can't just BE, and let other people be, and do what you want but not outright hurt or oppress, you also have to fight the system, to fight appropriation, and most importantly when it comes to racial topics, to listen to the minority because they're the ones who dealt with it, who experienced it. You can't just go with the flow, you have to fight against the waters.
I'm not attacking you Heather, you know I adore you and you're an amazing girl who does so much, I'm just saying that I don't agree with that particular aspect.
You're not getting it.
Does straight hair have religious meaning to you as a white person, Sky?
Really now. You don't need to throw out outrageous examples to try and be "right".
I am not trying to be right, I am just trying to give examples of how it could be taken a little bit too far. I never said I believed any of those things. I did not realize that it was a religious thing although now that I go back and read it was mentioned several times. What is the religious aspect of it? I also wasn't aware that it was offensive to people, and I still havent seen a person actually say on this thread that having dreadlocks is offensive to them because of their religion. But dont people borrow other cultures all the time? I dont see how this is different than say, someone wearing a cross around their neck because they like it or something like that.
Anything can be taken too far if you try hard enough, but we're not talking about everything else, we're talking specifically about dreads.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part people who wear crosses aren't a racially oppressed people.
Dreads have religious connections to a RACE OF PEOPLE. It's not just religion, it's religion + race.
And seriously, on a left wing board you need someone that it directly affects to speak up about it? Who WOULD amongst all this defending of racial matters? It doesn't matter that rebex said "I have friends that it oppresses", and that I said "I have friends that it oppresses", you need someone to come on directly and say it?
And even though you said to rebex that you DID read katg's post, the answer you're looking for was right in there:
Dreadlocks are rooted in Rastafarianism, a pan-African spiritual/religious movement for healing and decolonization for Africa and African people worldwide. Rastafarianism is a form of resistance to a history of white racism, slavery, colonization and genocide.
Other people have brought up other ways that there could be cultural appropriation throughout the thread.
I didnt realize that you had to be a racially oppressed person to be offended by cultural appropriation.
I never said that I needed someone that it directly affects but I was just saying that I havent seen anyone come here and say it directly affects them. Yeah rebex said and you said about your friend but it would be interesting to see an actual persons point of view instead of rebex or your interpretation of their views.
and thank you for pointing that out to me.
I am not trying to offend anyone I just honestly did not know that this offended anyone before like, today. So forgive me if I am not perfectly politcally correct.
Is it considered wrong for men to have long hair because of this:
Many, many non native cultures have had long hair in their history and there are many Native cultures who didn't. Although long hair does have spiritual connections in some Native cultures, it's not religious.
kats article is written by POC who are telling you their views.
why on earth would you think, especially after reading the insanity on this thread, that a POC would feel like they had to teach us anything when we clearly aren't listening very hard in the first place?
not many people are gunna come up to you and say "girl, yr hair is kinda offensive to me and my family. here's why." that kind of conversation usually needs a high degree of comfort that comes from a close, mutually respectful crosscultural relationship. ya know? if you aren't listening, or seem like you wouldn't listen, why would someone speak up to you?
its a social risk for someone to say they feel offended by what you said/did. especially when its a complex, subtle thing. its a privelege to recieve deep, critical feedback so that we can all grow to be better women. if we ignore it, that privelege rarely comes around again.
Is there a way for a poc to do cultural appropriation, like emeraldfirefly asked can an african american person who is not rastafarian and has dreadlocks be considered doing cultural appropriation or whatever? I am honestly curious because like I said I never heard of cultural appropriation until today :)
or if a native person has a mohawk? BD's step brother is native american and he has a mohawk. Would that be considered cultural appropriation or would it be embracing their culture, even if they arent doing it to embrace their culture?
i wonder about the non rasta having dreads as well.
I've been reading this thread and just wanted to jump in, with questions/comments regarding the mohawk.
I think I did realize that mowhawks comes from Native American culture, but recently it's associated with the Punk community.
Is there a reason why it was adapted there? The only time I do see a mohawk is in that situation.
I guess I'm just curious how the symbol/meaning of the mohawk shifted into the Punk community.
i did some reseatching and this is what i found,
http://www.howtodread.com/dreads.html
Dreadlocks History
Dreadlocks have been around since the dawn of time. Ancient Egyptians wore them, ancient Asian emperor's wore them, cavemen wore them, even John the Baptist and Samson wore them.
The first writing we have about dreadlocks is in the Veda scriptures of India, the earliest piece is dated to 1800 BC. But many peoples and tribes have worn dreadlocks the Germanic tribes, the Greeks,Samson and other Nazorites, John the Baptist, the Pacific peoples, and the Naga Indians also wore dreadlocks. King Tut himself had dreadlocks, and they are still intact to this day. The Mau Mau tribe wore dreadlocks to intimidate the colonizers of Kenya in east Africa. Even Caesar claimed that the Celts wore dreadlocks by describing them as having "hair like snakes".
The actual word dreadlocks comes from Jamaica, made up in the early movement of the Rastamen, dreadlocks came from the word dread for the meaning of fear and horror.
Locks are now worn in India by Sadhus (holy men), the Somali, the Galla, the Maasai, the Mau Mau, the Kau, the Ashanti, the Fulani, the Aborigines, and the New Guineans.
http://theearthcenter.com/ff47benben.html
this one is longer so i'll just give the link.
http://www.knottyboy.com/learn/dreadhistory.php
this thread totally disappoints me. i see people using the "innocent" question tactic to not address what was being said, deflect the issues, and not take responsibility for privelege & cultural appropriation.
yes, i've seen the "history of dreads" website from a bunch of white hippies to justify why its really, really not culturally appropriating to POC to have white kid dreads.
ya know, do what you want with your hair, but at least KNOW that you WILL offend some people who see you as belittling their culture and history of fighting oppression. don't be ignorant about the issue, be upfront, own up to it, be willing to say "yah, i know that some POC will see this as culturally appropriating, but i've given it a lot of thought, and for xyz reason my personal style deserves to come first!" personally, i have yet to hear an xyz reason that is valid to me. if you can say that outloud to the mirror, go on with yr dreadlocked white girl self!
*applauds rebex*
Very well put. I'm really disappointed here as well, I expected more.
Also no one seems to be actually reading the thread. The very same reply that Katg posted which was referred to MANY times in this thread for people to go back and actually READ, also mentioned why mohawks is Native American cultural appropriation.
I personally have only been bringing up similar questions or concerns because I don't understand the "other side's" perspective.
I am trying to learn, and I actually don't see anyone here going out of their way to be disrespectful. I honestly didn't know there was a spiritual/cultural mening behind dreads until this thread.
I have a decent concept of what cultural appropriation is, but its really not solid in my mind.
I'm sorry if anything I've said has deflected the conversation to other groups, or derailed the conversation, but I'm honestly trying to understand.
I think this goes back to the equation in the anti-racism FAQ:
It is your body. Do whatever you want with it. I have read the entire thread and I can see where you guys are coming from, but I really don't think there is anything wrong with letting your hair dred if you think it is cute that way. Some people might be offended, but dreads are not a sacred thing that is limited to one group of people.
YES. THEY. ARE.
And most of you should run, not walk, to Social Justice and RE READ the anti racism FAQ to learn why your behavior is NOT OKAY.
I am so sick of seeing racism on these boards.
(And yes, a white person being oppressive then denying what they are doing is being oppressive, is racist.)
Also, the FAQ has a good blurb about why asking POC a bazillion questions and asking for education isn't the best thing either, as well as rebex put it:
Appropriating culture when you know better, is racist. Encouraging others to oppress minorities with cultural appropriation because OH HEY OUR FEELINGS DON'T MATTER, not as much as your hair does! is RACIST.
A whoooooooole bunch of you in this thread right now are being RACIST. You don't like that word? Don't think you are? TOUGH, because that's what it is, and I'm sick of racism being tip toed and accepted on boards that are supposed to be progressive and anti racist.
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