Naivete has a point, this is something that should be taken very very seriously, and I think a lot of what is being used as defense can be debunked in the Anti-Racism FAQ Kat has posted here.
Your body is your own but what you do with it CAN actively trivialise and objectify others.[/url]
So, in my heart I think naivite and rebex and kat are right about all this.
Still, I am interested in exploring something--not with the intention of excusing pwoc having dreadlocks, but for the sake of discourse. In no way did I bring up the question of non-rasta black folks to distract from the issue, but there are some interesting implications of that question, IMO.
The idea that it's okay for black folks to wear dreadlocks without them bearing religious significance for the wearer does illustrate that culture and its representions are not static, like I was suggesting before. Having been strongly associated with a black culture and a black spirituality, dreadlocks took on political and social significance for many oppressed folks who do not identify as rastafari.
This change doesn't legitimize pwoc dreading their hair--as has been illustrated already, it is power and oppression that makes the difference here--but it illustrates how culture is not stagnant. Ideas move and shift through history. Practices and behaviors migrate along with people. Everything we do has been modeled after others. I guess what I'm getting at is where we draw the line. Cultural practices get appropriated and reinvented constantly, and our lives are patchworks. When do we cease to call something appropriation, when do we allow a practice to exist as part of a bicultural or multicultural existance? With this question I'm moving into more of a theoretical realm, as the question of dreadlocks has been addressed pretty well here. I can agree that pwoc dreading their hair can be called cultural appropriation, and I make no attempt to debate that.
i was thinking along the same lines. it was stated in this thread that it is offensive if "PWOC" have dreads. I dont understand why it wouldn't be offensive for anyone who is not rastafarian,to have dreads.
Also its already been said,but people are always borrowing/copying other peoples cultural and religious "styles" so this is not unique to the rastafarian religion. it annoys me as a catholic to see people wearing rosary beads as a fashion statement, or to see in Glamour magazine that crosses are "out" this year.
Also what about nose piercings? isn't this part of the hindu culture? there are a million examples of this...maybe that should be a new thread altogether.
ok, i havent been on in a while, and i have just stumbled across this.. Naivete, i think that your use of "privilege" is totally uncalled for. So your telling me, if a 14 yr old WHITE mama, who is homeless, beaten and raped on a daily basis, has higher privilege than a married, hard working mama who is higher class (doctor, lawyer etc) of colour? you are so wrong. i am very offended that you would even go that fair. it is racist that you keep insisting that people who are white are more privileged than other races. i understand that we may be less discrimintated against, but i have noticed, and im not the only one, that on this site, it is brought up alot about privilege this and privilege that. out of that example i just gave you, does it seem like the woman who is white is more fucking privileged than that of the woman of colour? GET OVER YOURSELF AND YOUR PRIVILEGE ISSUES! my goodness i am so tired of seeing that posted all the damn time. every race is discriminated against, so stop adding to it by claiming whites have all this privilege and power and whatever else, because in reality, we are no different than you, its only skin.
also, i am sure my previous post will stir up alot, but i am just so tired of feeling horrible for being white. i know POC are discriminated against, but there are things POC have, that whites dont. so it goes both ways. i am sure other mamas on here are starting to get offended too. i treat everyone fairly and on here, im tired of feeling so gross to be in my own skin because i have all this privilege when id like to know when! cuz i dont. i am no different than joe blow down the street.
so i hope no one takes my prev. post the wrong way, but honestly, we need to stop with all this privilege talk because its starting to offend some mamas on here.
PRIVELEGE is a term widely used, PreciousNicole, I didn't just make it up. Being white is a societal privilege, being wealthy is a societal privilege, so is being straight, partnered, etc.
Being white is a societal privelege, whether you learn to recognize it or not.
Read the Anti-racism FAQ. For real. Because I'm sick and tired of white people putting themselves above POC, and I'm sick and tired of educating every few days to people who just aren't going to get it, even though it's a terribly simple concept.
You ever wonder why there's little to none women of color on these boards?
You ever wonder why African Americans have coined the term womanism because they're sick of the racism in white feminist circles?
You ever think maybe you should just shut up and learn?
I take a white person's opinion about what's offensive and what isn't when it comes to racism, about the same that I take a man's opinion about abortion. You guys just don't get it. This type of shit should be approached the same way that the kidless allies have to approach parenting threads, where they have to recognize their position and not drown out the voices of parents when it comes to things that parents know better.
and I thank the anti-racist allies in this thread who have tried to convince the others, but you can only bang your head against a brick wall so often before it just starts to hurt.
You ever think maybe you should just shut up and learn?
I take a white person's opinion about what's offensive and what isn't when it comes to racism, about the same that I take a man's opinion about abortion. You guys just don't get it. This type of shit should be approached the same way that the kidless allies have to approach parenting threads, where they have to recognize their position and not drown out the voices of parents when it comes to things that parents know better.
if you ask me, that sounds pretty racist to me. I have children, and yes they are of a different background than i am. i recognize my position and "US GUYS" do get it. as that comes across and very racist. "You guys just don't get it" check yourself. I was in no way being racist to you. not all white people have higher social status, and not all white people have privilege. my daughters are both native, they have native status, i understand about differences, my children have what not many white people have (unless they are mixed with native) so in some sense, that gives them privelege to free prescriptions that otherwise would not be covered, free schooling and more. so dont sit here and tell me that other races arent of privelege, i may be white, but im far from stupid.
this isnt about how men feel. ALL DIFFERENT RACES OF MAMAS ARE ON HERE! this isnt just a POC website last i checked. and it isnt just PWOC website. it has nothing to do with ambushing a POC thread. if you dont want whites to respond, than PUT THAT IN A THREAD and make it known your being discriminating. dont try to be so damn hush hush about it. and last i checked, whites have feelings too, and we have the right to feel offended. no one here is saying anything negative about poc, so what gives you that right to talk down about pwoc? honestly now.
I'm glad you see it as a "privilege" that your daughters were born native and get OMGZ all this free stuff!!
You know WHY we get that "privilege" of free prescriptions?
Because my family, not talking distant relatives here, but my MOTHER, my AUNTS, my UNCLES, my GRANDPARENTS, were tortured, beaten and raped in schools run by the government after being kidnapped by their family, because they were native. Learn about the goddamn history and you'll see that free prescriptions does NOT MAKE UP FOR IT NOR IS IT A GODDAMN PRIVILEGE.
i know about the history. i have read up on it. i totally agree, nothing is free. MY CHILDRENS GRANDPARENTS WENT THRU THOSE SCHOOLS! i personally have not experienced them, and will never know how horrible it was. but i do know about them, and what happened in them. so please dont assume that i dont read into things.
like i said, nothing is free in this world. out of my whole post, thats all you could say? your just trying to justify your discrimination. whatever this it totally pointless. YOU just dont get it. and no i am not saying that because your native. because i know that will be the next thing you throw at me. i, unlike you, are not racist. i am asking that we stop throwing around the whole omg white ppl have this and white ppl have that. other races do too. we are here to support one another, not cut each other up.
oh yeah, and you dont need to belittle me with all your OMG OMG OMG. thats very rude. i dont see it as anything that my children were born native. i was pointing something out. if your going to argue or whatever your trying to do, than please be respectful in it.
oh dear, i came back to see where this went and boom! how is this that hard to get? katg or rebex i think explained pretty clearly how dreads became a symbol of black power etc. thats uh, why it isnt appropriating for non-rastafari black folks to have dreads. and mohawks on other native people, um maybe youre not totally aware of this but those white colonializing guys werent the smartest kids in class and they thought lots of people were mohawks, which is where the word for the hairstyle comes from, its actually a warrior hairstyle. cause it looks so tough. when i see native guys on the sreet sporting mohawks i want to slap them five and buy them coffee. (and speaking of smart white guys and the word 'mohawk'. mohawk is a ojibwe word. it means 'eaters of human fleash', cause theres this big long history of war between ojibwe and mohawk people;. mohawks generally know themselves as 'kanienke'haka' which means 'people of the flint', but why trouble ourselves with these details?)
anyways, i know i havent written anything particularily constructive,but since kat and rebex and cristi have written a lot of constructive things and theyre not being understood or listened to or whatever, why trouble myself with being genuine. this thread fucking sucks. sometimes (a lot of the time in fact) if youre really confused by something you should just listen. sleep on it. research it on your own. listen some more. it really really works! generally as well if you just learn about a concept that super important to people today, you should learn about it for a bit before challenging it as wrong or confusing or whatever. just throwing that out there. just an idea. i mean while youre waiting for that crowd of mamas of colour to show up and educate you or whatever.
cristi, like chill out man. isnt there some free chill-out pills you can take. i mean their FREE!!! what are you so uppity for? its like this affects your life or family, or like your burnt out from living in a really racist country as an aboriginal woman. whats youre problem? i dont get is......(iheartyou)
your running out of stuff to fire at me. in some way shape or form everyone is a minority. and everyone can be racist to an extent. might not be with skin colour, ethnicity, hair colour, but it could be with something else. so again, all i am asking is, can we stop throwing around privilege this and privilege that. if you dont want "white people" to post in one of your threads, than specify that. yeah thats racist and discriminating, but hey, obviously thats what you want. i am white, and yeah my ancestors did alot of wrong, but that isnt me, and i wont be penalized for that. you dont want my opinion, than you need to specify NO WHITES REPLY. show your racism. because thats what that is. anyways im done debating this because its pointless.. your only picking and choosing stuff to argue about. i believe EVERYONE on this site, and in real life need to be treated with decency (sp?) and respect. i dont care what colour they are, what language they speak or what colour underwear they wear! we are all human and we can not be penalized for our ancestors mistakes. we are all human and on this website we need to respect each other. not just people of colour. if you cant do that, maybe this website isnt the place for you. unless im totally wrong and this is only for people of colour. anyways im done disbuting this, everyone is able to read my posts and get from it what they want. but yeah, i am going to bed now. Good Night Naivete and have a good night sleep.
cristi, like chill out man. isnt there some free chill-out pills you can take. i mean their FREE!!! what are you so uppity for? its like this affects your life or family, or like your burnt out from living in a really racist country as an aboriginal woman. whats youre problem? i dont get is......(iheartyou)
I love how your sarcasm always makes a point ;)
Yes, there's free chill out pills, didn't you hear? Us privileged "Indians" get free whatever we want, and for no reason at all!
PreciousNicole - I didn't run out, but like I've said you can only bang your head against a brick wall so many times.
Naivete has a point, this is something that should be taken very very seriously, and I think a lot of what is being used as defense can be debunked in the Anti-Racism FAQ Kat has posted here.
Your body is your own but what you do with it CAN actively trivialise and objectify others.[/url]
So, in my heart I think naivite and rebex and kat are right about all this.
Still, I am interested in exploring something--not with the intention of excusing pwoc having dreadlocks, but for the sake of discourse. In no way did I bring up the question of non-rasta black folks to distract from the issue, but there are some interesting implications of that question, IMO.
The idea that it's okay for black folks to wear dreadlocks without them bearing religious significance for the wearer does illustrate that culture and its representions are not static, like I was suggesting before. Having been strongly associated with a black culture and a black spirituality, dreadlocks took on political and social significance for many oppressed folks who do not identify as rastafari.
This change doesn't legitimize pwoc dreading their hair--as has been illustrated already, it is power and oppression that makes the difference here--but it illustrates how culture is not stagnant. Ideas move and shift through history. Practices and behaviors migrate along with people. Everything we do has been modeled after others. I guess what I'm getting at is where we draw the line. Cultural practices get appropriated and reinvented constantly, and our lives are patchworks. When do we cease to call something appropriation, when do we allow a practice to exist as part of a bicultural or multicultural existance? With this question I'm moving into more of a theoretical realm, as the question of dreadlocks has been addressed pretty well here. I can agree that pwoc dreading their hair can be called cultural appropriation, and I make no attempt to debate that.
i was thinking along the same lines. it was stated in this thread that it is offensive if "PWOC" have dreads. I dont understand why it wouldn't be offensive for anyone who is not rastafarian,to have dreads.
Also its already been said,but people are always borrowing/copying other peoples cultural and religious "styles" so this is not unique to the rastafarian religion. it annoys me as a catholic to see people wearing rosary beads as a fashion statement, or to see in Glamour magazine that crosses are "out" this year.
Also what about nose piercings? isn't this part of the hindu culture? there are a million examples of this...maybe that should be a new thread altogether.
ok, i havent been on in a while, and i have just stumbled across this.. Naivete, i think that your use of "privilege" is totally uncalled for. So your telling me, if a 14 yr old WHITE mama, who is homeless, beaten and raped on a daily basis, has higher privilege than a married, hard working mama who is higher class (doctor, lawyer etc) of colour? you are so wrong. i am very offended that you would even go that fair. it is racist that you keep insisting that people who are white are more privileged than other races. i understand that we may be less discrimintated against, but i have noticed, and im not the only one, that on this site, it is brought up alot about privilege this and privilege that. out of that example i just gave you, does it seem like the woman who is white is more fucking privileged than that of the woman of colour? GET OVER YOURSELF AND YOUR PRIVILEGE ISSUES! my goodness i am so tired of seeing that posted all the damn time. every race is discriminated against, so stop adding to it by claiming whites have all this privilege and power and whatever else, because in reality, we are no different than you, its only skin.
also, i am sure my previous post will stir up alot, but i am just so tired of feeling horrible for being white. i know POC are discriminated against, but there are things POC have, that whites dont. so it goes both ways. i am sure other mamas on here are starting to get offended too. i treat everyone fairly and on here, im tired of feeling so gross to be in my own skin because i have all this privilege when id like to know when! cuz i dont. i am no different than joe blow down the street.
so i hope no one takes my prev. post the wrong way, but honestly, we need to stop with all this privilege talk because its starting to offend some mamas on here.
PRIVELEGE is a term widely used, PreciousNicole, I didn't just make it up. Being white is a societal privilege, being wealthy is a societal privilege, so is being straight, partnered, etc.
Being white is a societal privelege, whether you learn to recognize it or not.
Read the Anti-racism FAQ. For real. Because I'm sick and tired of white people putting themselves above POC, and I'm sick and tired of educating every few days to people who just aren't going to get it, even though it's a terribly simple concept.
You ever wonder why there's little to none women of color on these boards?
You ever wonder why African Americans have coined the term womanism because they're sick of the racism in white feminist circles?
You ever think maybe you should just shut up and learn?
I take a white person's opinion about what's offensive and what isn't when it comes to racism, about the same that I take a man's opinion about abortion. You guys just don't get it. This type of shit should be approached the same way that the kidless allies have to approach parenting threads, where they have to recognize their position and not drown out the voices of parents when it comes to things that parents know better.
and I thank the anti-racist allies in this thread who have tried to convince the others, but you can only bang your head against a brick wall so often before it just starts to hurt.
And by the way, NO ONE NEEDS TO BE REMINDED THAT PRIVILEGED GROUPS FEEL PAIN TOO.
I'm sorry that we can't have even ONE discussion about POC being hurt and oppressed without white people jumping in going "omgz what about me!"
If we were discussing feminism and a man jumped in talking about how very oppressed he is, would we put up with it?
And I don't care if you feel hurt - we live in a racist society and white people have inherent racism and a huge fucking societal privilege over POC.
LEARN, and maybe then you won't be so offended, because really it's not that hard to understand once you get the basics.
ONCE AGAIN - GO READ THE HIP MAMA ANTI RACISM FAQ.
if you ask me, that sounds pretty racist to me. I have children, and yes they are of a different background than i am. i recognize my position and "US GUYS" do get it. as that comes across and very racist. "You guys just don't get it" check yourself. I was in no way being racist to you. not all white people have higher social status, and not all white people have privilege. my daughters are both native, they have native status, i understand about differences, my children have what not many white people have (unless they are mixed with native) so in some sense, that gives them privelege to free prescriptions that otherwise would not be covered, free schooling and more. so dont sit here and tell me that other races arent of privelege, i may be white, but im far from stupid.
this isnt about how men feel. ALL DIFFERENT RACES OF MAMAS ARE ON HERE! this isnt just a POC website last i checked. and it isnt just PWOC website. it has nothing to do with ambushing a POC thread. if you dont want whites to respond, than PUT THAT IN A THREAD and make it known your being discriminating. dont try to be so damn hush hush about it. and last i checked, whites have feelings too, and we have the right to feel offended. no one here is saying anything negative about poc, so what gives you that right to talk down about pwoc? honestly now.
Seriously, that's crossing the last line.
I'm glad you see it as a "privilege" that your daughters were born native and get OMGZ all this free stuff!!
You know WHY we get that "privilege" of free prescriptions?
Because my family, not talking distant relatives here, but my MOTHER, my AUNTS, my UNCLES, my GRANDPARENTS, were tortured, beaten and raped in schools run by the government after being kidnapped by their family, because they were native. Learn about the goddamn history and you'll see that free prescriptions does NOT MAKE UP FOR IT NOR IS IT A GODDAMN PRIVILEGE.
i know about the history. i have read up on it. i totally agree, nothing is free. MY CHILDRENS GRANDPARENTS WENT THRU THOSE SCHOOLS! i personally have not experienced them, and will never know how horrible it was. but i do know about them, and what happened in them. so please dont assume that i dont read into things.
like i said, nothing is free in this world. out of my whole post, thats all you could say? your just trying to justify your discrimination. whatever this it totally pointless. YOU just dont get it. and no i am not saying that because your native. because i know that will be the next thing you throw at me. i, unlike you, are not racist. i am asking that we stop throwing around the whole omg white ppl have this and white ppl have that. other races do too. we are here to support one another, not cut each other up.
oh yeah, and you dont need to belittle me with all your OMG OMG OMG. thats very rude. i dont see it as anything that my children were born native. i was pointing something out. if your going to argue or whatever your trying to do, than please be respectful in it.
respectful LIKE YOU ARE?
In a post about racism towards minorities you bring up the "white people feel pain too" bullshit?
And by the way, MINORITIES CAN NOT BE RACIST.
oh dear, i came back to see where this went and boom! how is this that hard to get? katg or rebex i think explained pretty clearly how dreads became a symbol of black power etc. thats uh, why it isnt appropriating for non-rastafari black folks to have dreads. and mohawks on other native people, um maybe youre not totally aware of this but those white colonializing guys werent the smartest kids in class and they thought lots of people were mohawks, which is where the word for the hairstyle comes from, its actually a warrior hairstyle. cause it looks so tough. when i see native guys on the sreet sporting mohawks i want to slap them five and buy them coffee. (and speaking of smart white guys and the word 'mohawk'. mohawk is a ojibwe word. it means 'eaters of human fleash', cause theres this big long history of war between ojibwe and mohawk people;. mohawks generally know themselves as 'kanienke'haka' which means 'people of the flint', but why trouble ourselves with these details?)
anyways, i know i havent written anything particularily constructive,but since kat and rebex and cristi have written a lot of constructive things and theyre not being understood or listened to or whatever, why trouble myself with being genuine. this thread fucking sucks. sometimes (a lot of the time in fact) if youre really confused by something you should just listen. sleep on it. research it on your own. listen some more. it really really works! generally as well if you just learn about a concept that super important to people today, you should learn about it for a bit before challenging it as wrong or confusing or whatever. just throwing that out there. just an idea. i mean while youre waiting for that crowd of mamas of colour to show up and educate you or whatever.
cristi, like chill out man. isnt there some free chill-out pills you can take. i mean their FREE!!! what are you so uppity for? its like this affects your life or family, or like your burnt out from living in a really racist country as an aboriginal woman. whats youre problem? i dont get is......(iheartyou)
your running out of stuff to fire at me. in some way shape or form everyone is a minority. and everyone can be racist to an extent. might not be with skin colour, ethnicity, hair colour, but it could be with something else. so again, all i am asking is, can we stop throwing around privilege this and privilege that. if you dont want "white people" to post in one of your threads, than specify that. yeah thats racist and discriminating, but hey, obviously thats what you want. i am white, and yeah my ancestors did alot of wrong, but that isnt me, and i wont be penalized for that. you dont want my opinion, than you need to specify NO WHITES REPLY. show your racism. because thats what that is. anyways im done debating this because its pointless.. your only picking and choosing stuff to argue about. i believe EVERYONE on this site, and in real life need to be treated with decency (sp?) and respect. i dont care what colour they are, what language they speak or what colour underwear they wear! we are all human and we can not be penalized for our ancestors mistakes. we are all human and on this website we need to respect each other. not just people of colour. if you cant do that, maybe this website isnt the place for you. unless im totally wrong and this is only for people of colour. anyways im done disbuting this, everyone is able to read my posts and get from it what they want. but yeah, i am going to bed now. Good Night Naivete and have a good night sleep.
I love how your sarcasm always makes a point ;)
Yes, there's free chill out pills, didn't you hear? Us privileged "Indians" get free whatever we want, and for no reason at all!
PreciousNicole - I didn't run out, but like I've said you can only bang your head against a brick wall so many times.
Good night, brick wall.
locking for length
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