It's not true that the community I imagine doesn't exist. It's the "community" I grew up in. My parents had help from pretty much everyone in their lives. They took in 15 kids, knowing they couldn't do it alone but believing that the community (for them it was mostly the church) had a responsibility to help us (the kids). My parents were just a home base or something. I create that community in Austin with my momma friends now. We all have different skills and interests and we help each other out from sharing cars and childcare to just being there for each other emotionally so no one feels isolated as a mother.
Erika, I agree with you that GM is about encouraging women to defy stereotypes. And one of those stereotypes is that being on welfare makes you a leech on society.
Mothering is work.
And I am not saying that people should be encouraged to stay on welfare. I am saying that the way our society works, when you look at actual class mobility - it basically does not exist.
However, I always thought the point of GM was to say "you can do it, look at all of us who have made it" rather than "don't bother trying, just stay on welfare because you'll likely never get off". I also find it contradicting to speak of these issues in this manner when the goal of GM is to "fight stereotypes", not become them.
I do think that girl-mom is still about getting past the stereotypes of single, teen parenting. Look at all the mamas here! But I think any judgement towards single parenting, young/teen parenting isn't what girl-mom is about either. And whether we all are bettering our lives by more education, college, working full-time, being SAHM, finishing up high school, our GEDs ... and alhtough some of these choices may not be the best for ourselves ... a lot of us have overcome a lot of obstacles.
I afford daycare and college by #1 subsidized daycare and #2 grants, (government) loans, and scholarships, which everyone is eligible for, by the way. I'm sorry if everyone doesn't know about these resources, but it doesn't make me privileged to be able to afford it (with the exception of the scholarships, which I have because I have "really smart person" privilege).
this is such a horrible, elitist, insincere, condescending, fu*ked up thing to say.
erika, the fact that you can READ by itself (let alone read English) makes you more privileged and more likely to receive those subsidies and grants. You really have shown us how entitled you feel to resources and things that are NOT options for a lot of people, but you can't admit so, which is very revealing. why the defensiveness?
this thread is bugging the sh*t out of me, and maybe i should have expected different, i just thought the women here were a little more in tune and more aware of how we have been socialized to think so negatively about variation within society... i.e., personal choice.
So only people with money should be able to raise their own children? Ya'll really really should read the book I suggested. This thread shows that GM needs some serious re-radicalisation and some poverty awareness. It's cool that a lot of you older mamas are making it. But GM is not about telling people they need to be cogs in some corporate machine to deserve their babies.
See, the thing is that there are a lot of things that "should" be, in theory, but in reality they just aren't. Yes, it SHOULD be that way, but is is not, so you do what you can to get to the point where you can be home with them.
What I proposed was working towards being able to stay home with your kids (you=general) instead of saying "well, it should be my right so I'm going to do it even though it's not really financially feasible right now"
That just doesn't make good sense.
If I were not privileged to have a partner that can support us for the most part, I would be working full time.
(Hm, I wonder if my partner sees it as a privilege that he has to work so damn much, though. probably not.)
On a another note, I get so sick of the "older mom" bullshit.
I was 16 when I got pregnant and 17 when my oldest was born.
I'm 27 with my 4th baby on the way and I'm doing ok, having had almost no familial support and no BD paying child support. I worked my ass off for many years raising my son alone- 10 hour days, 6 days a week- and I continue to work, and also stay at home while going to school full time every night and it continues to be somewhat of a struggle but I make it-so I really hate the implication that I've got it easy.
WTF? How do you recommend we go about not letting women get into those situations? Sterilise them? Take their kids away? Licensed births? And that no options bit is bullshit. There are options. They may not fit into your idea of how the world works. But in my world those options are creating a community that supports each other, finding way for mothers to work while still being with their children.
I refuse to even talk to you unless you're able to put down your defenses and stop putting words in peoples mouths and stop turning everything everyone says into something hyperdramatic. Yes, because by SUPPORT and EMPOWER THEM before they get INTO situations like that, I OBVIOUSLY meant sterilize them. For real. Good logical deduction there. :roll: Seriously, intelligent debate does not have room for defensiveness and dramatics.
And my idea of how the world works? Do you even realize how my world is? It is probably even more community based then yours. The POC type is where the village does raise children and often aunts and uncles are interchangeable with mother and father, grandparents raise children, everyone does it for free and everyone shares their resources so that no one goes without and everyone can do it. But I'm a realist and I know that women in 99% of situations are NOT going to have that, that's not how MY world works, that's how THE world works whether you like it or not. The world is more likely to NOT help this mother then it is to offer her a village and all the groovy hippie cool stuff that you and your friends got going on, I bet you she's more likely to have THE world influence her then yours. If you approach every situation as "oh hey well she must be doing okay" then you're leaving a lot of teen mamas out in the cold, I mean seriously.
She's not talking go up to random people and say "oh hey don't have kids" she's talking about if she has friends that she knows TTC may not be the best idea for them she will tell them "oh hey, TTC might not be the best idea for you" Which is what a true friend would do. And which is what this site is about.
No one on here has said welfare is bad and if you drop your wall and actually pay attention 99% of the girls saying it's best to get off welfare have been in your shoes before where they needed it, so seriously check yr defensiveness. That's what GM is about, you help women get through things, you don't encourage them to stay in a rut.
I think several of us have pointed out that girl-mom is a site about, "hey you CAN do it as a teen mom..." and yes, that's what the site IS about. I have also seen judgements flown around on this thread, too and I do know that's probably made several others feel uncomfortable to even say anything.
I can understand the point, of stating ... "Hey you might not be ready for a kid." I've said it to my sister before when she's brought it up, using my own personal experience of finishing school with a kid. But if she ever did get pregnant, I'd give her all the information I knew about supportive services, government assistance, etc etc ... I would also support her in the way of giving her advice if seh did get pregnant, little tips of how I have done it, etc etc ...
I know the whole debate of encouraging ANYONE to have children has come up before. I know a few of us have said that they wouldn't recommend anyone at any age to have children. I don't know if I can completely agree with that. I think we all have choices that we can make if we do get pregnant or thinking of pregnancy. We sometimes have to think of them AFTER the pregnancy happens. We have all made it as mothers in the situations we've been in, I have seen no failures on this site, no matter what we've chosen! I think we've all had huge accomplishments - and those being working, SAHM, college, high school, etc etc ... and that's amazing.
Again, I know someone also mentioned that the article didn't point out a whole ton about the situation, which I can agree. I do not like the "spin" it has on such negativity about young family and parenting. And more than likely, we will see that for a long time. Ignorance sadly, will always be there. And I think we can have better ways of dealing with it all instead of all of us getting defensive with each other ... I like a good debate, though. I think this has opened one up.
this is such a horrible, elitist, insincere, condescending, fu*ked up thing to say.
erika, the fact that you can READ by itself (let alone read English) makes you more privileged and more likely to receive those subsidies and grants. You really have shown us how entitled you feel to resources and things that are NOT options for a lot of people,
Actually, I wouldn't have even said it if I hadn't been accused of being "privileged" due to being born "gifted" before on here. I'm serious.
Also, I don't see where I should sit and be humble about being able to READ. Everyone on this site at least has that ability, and most people do have that ability (though literacy rates differ depending on area, race, and so on). We also all have access to computers and the internet, which is a lot more than some people. I think those of us here are aware that having access to these things is more than some. I still don't like to call it "privilege".
Why are government grants and loans not options for some people (assuming they have the ability to get into college)? I'm serious. I'd like to know why these would not be options.
Quote:
The world is more likely to NOT help this mother then it is to offer her a village and all the groovy hippie cool stuff that you and your friends got going on, I bet you she's more likely to have THE world influence her then yours. If you approach every situation as "oh hey well she must be doing okay" then you're leaving a lot of teen mamas out in the cold, I mean seriously.
Yes, agreed. More than likely, mothers in these situations do not have adequate support systems. Until the world changes, we have to adapt to reality...not expect the world to adapt to us (though, clearly, that would be nice), as it is in the best interests of our children to do what we need to do to get by. Sometimes that may mean altering behavior or goals to fit in with what will work for your community. I wish the days were 36 hours long, but until I can change the speed of the earth's spin, that will not happen, and I must adapt.
I agree that once a woman has made that choice she should be supported because it's no longer about her, but a child as well, but the point is if you can stop them from getting themselves deeper IF THEY ARE IN A BAD SITUATION then as a friend you have the responsibility to speak up and say it. No one is saying "well she made her bed she should lie in it" and no one is saying she shouldn't get welfare, she should, because there's no way she can support those children without it now, we're saying as friends we have the responsibility to look deeper into these situations to see if 1. it actually is in the best interest of the woman and the child and existing children, 2. if it will disable her in any way. It'd be great if we lived in a world where financially and emotionally everyone had the resources and support to take care of whatever amount of children they wanted, but they don't, and often women are left without enough food to go around even with welfare and we all know welfare doesn't provide enough, and often women are left without support, without childcare, without help getting places and doing things, and we can't pretend we don't live in that world because regardless, chances are that the women will be left in the cold.
I waited to comment on this post because of all the things being said but i see it is not going to calm down....
Ok it is not a right to stay home with your children...it IS a privelage. regardless to age gender, color, whatever you have the choice to stay home yes, but is it the right thing to do not always....I work a 24-7 job ( i am a live in nanny) and I do it because I want to better myself and save a bit of money so I wont need any help. I know the help is there for who needs it but like it say temporary assistance thats why there is a time limit on how much you can receive. welfare was not created to help mothers stay home with their children, it was created to provide the extra supplement from working a fucking shit minimum wage job or going to school.
staying home with your children is a hard job and people should be paid for it because it is so frustrating sometimes.....Staying home is your choice and your right as a mother but me personally cant survive off of the 240 a month that tanf pays women with children in florida.
as a young single mother whos family doesnt help her AT ALL i dont have the privelage of staying home with my son, although i would want to I cant because working full time pays more than tanf would ever pay. I dont bitch about my life because fuck it its here and i cant change it......
in terms of the article, its her right to have children yes......but think about it this way. if you came to gm wanting to have a child and needed our advice and you said yourself its not the best time financially I am very sorry I wouldnt just go tell you to have a child anyway. I would educate on the expenses of having a child and the effects it would have on your life....we have all done thins before when women have come with the same argument.
her life wasnt described very well in that article, but having more children and adding to an already hard situation doesnt seem like there is any thinking of consequences or life circumstances. I know that I use bc because I dont want anymore children....ever....thats my choice very much so. what im getting at here and i dont think I am doing it very well is that regardless to your age whatever you have choices but in return they may not be the right ones.....just cause you have the option doesnt mean you should always do it...
just to further explain my last sentance....i have the right to rob a bank but would it be in the best interest of the child I need to support....um no because I needto be here for him.......I have the right to have children yes but would it be in my best interest when i am already having a hard time? not so much
I don't see why it's so bad to tell people it might not be the best time for them anyways. I was thinking of TTC about a year and a half ago and I had a few people tell me it wasn't a good idea (Erika included). And although I initially got defensive, I realized about a month or so later, you know what? They are right. I wasn't in the best place and I'm glad I had friends willing to tell me to my face. Now that I am pregnant I'm still not in the best place, but I will make the best with what I have and I will still be an amazing mother, but do I wish it had come at a different time? Obviously. I was supposed to start school in September. But at least I'm in a better spot financially and emotionally then I was when I was thinking of TTC previously, and I'm super glad I didn't at that time. Not being in the best space for children or additional children is not a bad thing, being told it'd be better on you and on your children to wait is not a bad thing. Having friends who will not skip over LJ posts time and time again and will stop and say "Oh hey wait.. don't do that" even if it hurts to hear it, is better then having someone ignore your situation and ignore your questions and blindly support with a dumb smile on their face. I'd rather have someone take everything into consideration and tell me the truth then not care enough to make me think about it and give their honest opinion, because to me, THAT is support.
We also all have access to computers and the internet, which is a lot more than some people. I think those of us here are aware that having access to these things is more than some. I still don't like to call it "privilege".
my point is your hesitance and uncomfortableness with calling it privilege is the heart of the issue, and has been all along for me. you are saying that we all recognize we have resources like internet and the ability to read a sentence more so than others (which is Privilege!)... yet somehow, the denial to call it privilege is persisting, and with it, it is preventing a comprehensive understanding of how the cards are stacked in your favor and less so for others, such as maybe this mother of 7 kids.
if you cannot feel humble about being able to read, you have a long, long way to go baby. reading is not a born-in right either, go ahead and ask the majority of the world's population. it's all about perspective and what you have shown of yours leads me to believe you have lived a privileged life, undoubtedly. you play victim, but why? to make yourself look better, stonger, or smarter? there's no need and it doesn't beget progress. there is no such thing as an even playing field where we start at "zero privilege," and where disadvantages and privileges cancel each other out in some kind of tally. we're all plus in some areas and minus in others.
erika wrote:
Why are government grants and loans not options for some people (assuming they have the ability to get into college)? I'm serious. I'd like to know why these would not be options.
well, first, you have to know they exist. then you have to have transportation to get to whatever office or agency to fill them out. if they don't have private transportation, they *may* have the option to take public if it's in their community, but for those of us who have taken the bus- you know how long it takes to get from a to b.
which brings up the time/$ issue... because then you have to come back to be interviewed with a shitload of more information. let's assume this person works- well, then they have to take off work and lose a day or two of wages to make the appointments. it's not an option for many who need the assistance. if they have kids, they may need childcare to get to the appointment. these are the tangible, logistical factors.
now let's look at some other relevant issues- depression is pretty rampant and higher in lower income areas. what is the main symptom of depression? apathy and lethargy. well, now this person who has no way logistically of getting there now has to fight themselves to get out of bed, to keep the perspective that it is worth the trouble to go do the paperwork for the long run, even though their depression clouds their ability to focus on anything other than the here and now. maybe their neighbor went through all the hastle and did all the paperwork and told them it wasn't worth the effort because they barely got enough back to make it worth the hastle, and they thought it was wise to listen and save themself the waste.
i mean, there could be a million reasons why someone doesn't do something. as individuals, people have different rationales, different personalities, and different motivators because they have different histories that made them this way.
thanks amy thats exactly what i was trying to get across but every time i mention something im wrong! or at least in her eyes. being a sahm is lame. . . no reason why getting into college is hard. . . people shouldn't get caught up in welfare. . . im so done with this everytime i say something i feel like erika is trying to prove that i have to right to say that. im tired of saying what i feel is important in my life isn't. you really should be less judgemental erika and realize just because you feel everyone should be able to do they can't always. . . what applies to you doesn't apply to everyone
And no one is saying those don't exist, people are saying we shouldn't let them break women, rather help them get around those things in order to make those available. And yes they are still available even to those people you're example'ing, they just need proper support and help in order to do it, which they won't get if we're like "well okay, just don't even try."
I grew up on welfare in a poor POC household that was full of abuse and addiction, made it through my own addictions and homelessness and mental issues and yet omg, with proper support, everything was still available to me. But that PROPER SUPPORT is key. I had more hurdles, but I made it around them, and now I help other women make it around them. And I think it's BS to let hurdles remain mountains and not help women through them. There's a difference between acknowledging privilege and letting it disable women. There's a difference between understanding why some POC in bad situations are in bad situations, and letting them stay there, or worse yet, encouraging it.
Erika is not saying that hardships don't exist, rather that there are still ways through them, and we should encourage women to keep pushing for it instead of letting them stay in bad situations or further eroding their situation by sitting by idly.
I've helped women IRL who were in bad relationships with mental issues and in poverty get on their feet, and there's no way it would have helped them if I had sat by idly while they made mistakes I knew would make it worse.
Please don't say "lame" ian&aidansmama, it's ableist.
I was thinking more of temporary assistance. And you have certain things you have to do monthly/weekly, etc ... and yes, they are valid things like, job searching, training, etc etc ... but really, if you don't have skills for decent jobs, how are you going to be able to sustain yourself after your assistance is gone, you know? And not everyone has the resources to go to college or get better training even with assistance.
I think as a society, we all need some type of support system. I can agree on that and I do think it would be beneficial for people in general to decide what they want to do in life. I remember when I was 18 years old, pregnant and almost done with high school - I had NO CLUE what I wanted to do in college and it took 2.5 years to figure that out & now I am going into something completely different.
But that's the thing, things ARE available to help out with that in so many cases. Like with aboriginals there are groups in Calgary that provide free training in job skills and then job placement. I work with a few of these groups and they have openings, it's not like it's hugely waitlisted, you can go here and get recognized training as a plumber, or a carpenter, and then they help you find a job once you have the training. We need to stop looking at obstacles as dead ends, for each of the things you're mentioning instead of saying "oh well they face that" we should be saying "well here's a way around it, here's a way to get it".
Because obstacles are not dead ends and it's not beneficial to anyone to act as if they are.
well, first, you have to know they exist. then you have to have transportation to get to whatever office or agency to fill them out. if they don't have private transportation, they *may* have the option to take public if it's in their community, but for those of us who have taken the bus- you know how long it takes to get from a to b.
which brings up the time/$ issue... because then you have to come back to be interviewed with a shitload of more information. let's assume this person works- well, then they have to take off work and lose a day or two of wages to make the appointments. it's not an option for many who need the assistance. if they have kids, they may need childcare to get to the appointment. these are the tangible, logistical factors.
In my experience getting assistance requires more meetings and paperwork than getting grants and into college. I had to continually go in for verfication, weigh ins, income eligability, etc when on medicaid and WIC. I know that the one time we applied and were denied foodstamps we had to jump through hoops, fill out a thick application and go to a couple meetings.
Those things can be just as (or more) difficult when having kids as filling out a FAFSA and applying to a community college.
We need to stop looking at obstacles as dead ends, for each of the things you're mentioning instead of saying "oh well they face that" we should be saying "well here's a way around it, here's a way to get it".
Because obstacles are not dead ends and it's not beneficial to anyone to act as if they are.
Exactly.
I was homeless when my son was small.
I had to take a taxi to get my son to school and myself to work every day and when I could not afford the taxi, I got a bike with a baby seat at the thrift store and rode it to and from daycare, work, home, even in the dead of winter.
It took forever, and I had to get up at 4am to leave for work and I didn't get home till after 6pm most days.
I worked my ass off to get to this point, and I really don't see how working hard and making something out of nothing is privileged.
It can be done and that is what we should be telling women.
We should not be making excuses for apathy, and that is unfortunately what a lot of this is.
i take issue with a bunch of privileged people sitting around deciding what is best for others in a tight spot, which is partly why i'm getting out of counseling. it seems very utopic and unrealistic to think there will never be poor women with children on welfare. i am not saying that nothing should be done to help a sister out, but rather, i am interested in spreading understanding that we are all where we are on the food chain for various reasons that are often overlooked- both intentionally and not. absolutely, i agree that support is key. i think that is why so many of us on here are drawn to the social work/human services field. but it is very important to have a clear understanding of how personal choice becomes intersected by available options and life circumstance. understanding is essential for effective support, otherwise you have put yourself figuratively "up here," while the other person is stuck "down there." it's an attitude, a mentality. that's all i'm really saying.
I have an issue with a PWOC telling me as a POC that I'm privileged or that where I am today is because of privilege.
I am in many ways such as that I have a partner, but that doesn't negate areas in which I had more obstacles then a white woman will.
I've been through homelessness, meth addiction, abusive relationships and being aboriginal on top of it all, and I pushed through and found my way around obstacles and through them. That doesn't mean I'm some privileged woman sitting on my high horse at all the nether people below, and it's kind of weird to say that.
And in any case, there is a difference. Say a woman came in and had her kids at 30 and was raised super wealthy and inherited her money and never had a bad day in her life, her telling you that you can get to where she is would be insulting. The girls who are telling you this are previous teen mothers, women who have faced the same very obstacles and fought through it. That's hardly the same thing, and if you view it as the same then you're just not really opening your eyes to what they're saying.
I wanted to add, the whole "by your own advocate" thing comes to mind.
Sometimes there will be no one and no program to help you (like my situation).
That doesn't mean you are STUCK. It feels that way, but you have to have the mindset that you can get yourself and your family out of it and you have to do it alone.
haha, on a lighter note while I was typing this my son took my school ID card and now i can't log into my school email to get my info about financial aid for next semester! Ugh...hello obstacles!
Oh! I do believe there are many opportunities to have training and/or apprenticeship to get jobs. Sometimes there also isn't funding available. Where I work there is a big crunch this last month of the fiscal year to get help to people. I understand there's help out there, but I also think besides financial wise, jobs are a good thing to find something you actually LIKE doing. Which is where a support system and community can come in.
It's odd how I didn't know how much help out there, there actually until I had a kid. People w/o kids need help, too. We all know that.
I don't think that filling out paperwork was humiliating, to be completely honest ... when it comes to FAFSA and social assistance, it's something that needs to get done and why feel shameful of it? Yes, the people might sometimes make you feel like shit for actually doing it ... but I look past that.
it was the people in the office that made me feel humiliated...
That I can understand ... I think some of them need to work more on the social work aspect. I've noticed that more in larger cities. ND isn't too bad. I just brush it off, though.
i take issue with a bunch of privileged people sitting around deciding what is best for others in a tight spot,
i really hope this was not in refrence to any of us because if so it was rude....
Is it privlaged to get no child support? is it privlaged that I work a 24-7 day job to provide for my son....is it privlaged to have a bed to cry into at night when i think of having to be a single mom forever? because these are thethings that happen to me and im not sitting around deciding what is best for others in a tight spot.
Privlage to me is having an advantage....I dont think working all the fucking time, and going to schoolis a privlage.....im sorry getting into school is hard but most people can do it with the programs that are offered....
you make what you want with your life, weather you have to fight tooth and nail for it or if it is handed to you.......you have the power to change your path and the direction you choose.....again it may be difficult and that im not denying but dont have a pity party and say i will never be anything and no one will help me.....because no one helps anyone in this world...its a shame but its true...if you want something in life you have to have the drive and do it yourself.
this isn't an oppression hierarchy thread. i mean, different oppressions and obstacles are different for each person. it's not "i'm plus 3 (privileges), but minus 4 (oppressions or hardships) so i'm genuinely, legitimately oppressed because the balance is negative." who is to say what is better/worse/etc.? for example, erika says she never felt discrimination at her daycare from the older, wealthier mamas, but we may have expected she would have because that may be the more "typical" experience. assumptions are a big part of the problem- and this can work in both ways.
***and i don't think this was clear, but when i said "i take issue with a bunch of privileged people sitting around deciding what is best for others in a tight spot" i was not (intentionally) referring to this thread, but speaking generally in terms of policy makers, psychologists, and really anyone who feels like they have the authority to push (not just state, but actively manipulate) their personal opinion onto another person when they are in a position to influence another's life path.
I think that going to school CAN BE a prilvelge in the way that not all people have that option. Some people dropped out & need to get their GEDs and it costs money for that. And some people don't get all the grants, scholarships and loans to help with college and there's are barriers.
Yes, I have done tons of research on my own to find out more & more funding for school and have found it. Again, that's where I think more of these programs can be put out there more so people can find out more!
It can be hard and we all work our asses off through school (and whatever else), but it can be a privlege to go to school. Especially when comparing it to many others around the world that DON'T that option. Like, ever.
And there is tons of help out there, you just gotta look for it, I agree. It's hard and time consuming, but completely worth it. I think more people need to go look for it, there does need to be more people that can educate others about these programs.
By most people going to school, is hard ... and most people can do it. Not necessarily, there are a lot of people in the world that can't.
It's not true that the community I imagine doesn't exist. It's the "community" I grew up in. My parents had help from pretty much everyone in their lives. They took in 15 kids, knowing they couldn't do it alone but believing that the community (for them it was mostly the church) had a responsibility to help us (the kids). My parents were just a home base or something. I create that community in Austin with my momma friends now. We all have different skills and interests and we help each other out from sharing cars and childcare to just being there for each other emotionally so no one feels isolated as a mother.
Erika, I agree with you that GM is about encouraging women to defy stereotypes. And one of those stereotypes is that being on welfare makes you a leech on society.
Mothering is work.
And I am not saying that people should be encouraged to stay on welfare. I am saying that the way our society works, when you look at actual class mobility - it basically does not exist.
this is such a horrible, elitist, insincere, condescending, fu*ked up thing to say.
erika, the fact that you can READ by itself (let alone read English) makes you more privileged and more likely to receive those subsidies and grants. You really have shown us how entitled you feel to resources and things that are NOT options for a lot of people, but you can't admit so, which is very revealing. why the defensiveness?
this thread is bugging the sh*t out of me, and maybe i should have expected different, i just thought the women here were a little more in tune and more aware of how we have been socialized to think so negatively about variation within society... i.e., personal choice.
See, the thing is that there are a lot of things that "should" be, in theory, but in reality they just aren't. Yes, it SHOULD be that way, but is is not, so you do what you can to get to the point where you can be home with them.
What I proposed was working towards being able to stay home with your kids (you=general) instead of saying "well, it should be my right so I'm going to do it even though it's not really financially feasible right now"
That just doesn't make good sense.
If I were not privileged to have a partner that can support us for the most part, I would be working full time.
(Hm, I wonder if my partner sees it as a privilege that he has to work so damn much, though. probably not.)
On a another note, I get so sick of the "older mom" bullshit.
I was 16 when I got pregnant and 17 when my oldest was born.
I'm 27 with my 4th baby on the way and I'm doing ok, having had almost no familial support and no BD paying child support. I worked my ass off for many years raising my son alone- 10 hour days, 6 days a week- and I continue to work, and also stay at home while going to school full time every night and it continues to be somewhat of a struggle but I make it-so I really hate the implication that I've got it easy.
Word to AmyRox.
I refuse to even talk to you unless you're able to put down your defenses and stop putting words in peoples mouths and stop turning everything everyone says into something hyperdramatic. Yes, because by SUPPORT and EMPOWER THEM before they get INTO situations like that, I OBVIOUSLY meant sterilize them. For real. Good logical deduction there. :roll: Seriously, intelligent debate does not have room for defensiveness and dramatics.
And my idea of how the world works? Do you even realize how my world is? It is probably even more community based then yours. The POC type is where the village does raise children and often aunts and uncles are interchangeable with mother and father, grandparents raise children, everyone does it for free and everyone shares their resources so that no one goes without and everyone can do it. But I'm a realist and I know that women in 99% of situations are NOT going to have that, that's not how MY world works, that's how THE world works whether you like it or not. The world is more likely to NOT help this mother then it is to offer her a village and all the groovy hippie cool stuff that you and your friends got going on, I bet you she's more likely to have THE world influence her then yours. If you approach every situation as "oh hey well she must be doing okay" then you're leaving a lot of teen mamas out in the cold, I mean seriously.
She's not talking go up to random people and say "oh hey don't have kids" she's talking about if she has friends that she knows TTC may not be the best idea for them she will tell them "oh hey, TTC might not be the best idea for you" Which is what a true friend would do. And which is what this site is about.
No one on here has said welfare is bad and if you drop your wall and actually pay attention 99% of the girls saying it's best to get off welfare have been in your shoes before where they needed it, so seriously check yr defensiveness. That's what GM is about, you help women get through things, you don't encourage them to stay in a rut.
I think several of us have pointed out that girl-mom is a site about, "hey you CAN do it as a teen mom..." and yes, that's what the site IS about. I have also seen judgements flown around on this thread, too and I do know that's probably made several others feel uncomfortable to even say anything.
I can understand the point, of stating ... "Hey you might not be ready for a kid." I've said it to my sister before when she's brought it up, using my own personal experience of finishing school with a kid. But if she ever did get pregnant, I'd give her all the information I knew about supportive services, government assistance, etc etc ... I would also support her in the way of giving her advice if seh did get pregnant, little tips of how I have done it, etc etc ...
I know the whole debate of encouraging ANYONE to have children has come up before. I know a few of us have said that they wouldn't recommend anyone at any age to have children. I don't know if I can completely agree with that. I think we all have choices that we can make if we do get pregnant or thinking of pregnancy. We sometimes have to think of them AFTER the pregnancy happens. We have all made it as mothers in the situations we've been in, I have seen no failures on this site, no matter what we've chosen! I think we've all had huge accomplishments - and those being working, SAHM, college, high school, etc etc ... and that's amazing.
Again, I know someone also mentioned that the article didn't point out a whole ton about the situation, which I can agree. I do not like the "spin" it has on such negativity about young family and parenting. And more than likely, we will see that for a long time. Ignorance sadly, will always be there. And I think we can have better ways of dealing with it all instead of all of us getting defensive with each other ... I like a good debate, though. I think this has opened one up.
Actually, I wouldn't have even said it if I hadn't been accused of being "privileged" due to being born "gifted" before on here. I'm serious.
Also, I don't see where I should sit and be humble about being able to READ. Everyone on this site at least has that ability, and most people do have that ability (though literacy rates differ depending on area, race, and so on). We also all have access to computers and the internet, which is a lot more than some people. I think those of us here are aware that having access to these things is more than some. I still don't like to call it "privilege".
Why are government grants and loans not options for some people (assuming they have the ability to get into college)? I'm serious. I'd like to know why these would not be options.
Yes, agreed. More than likely, mothers in these situations do not have adequate support systems. Until the world changes, we have to adapt to reality...not expect the world to adapt to us (though, clearly, that would be nice), as it is in the best interests of our children to do what we need to do to get by. Sometimes that may mean altering behavior or goals to fit in with what will work for your community. I wish the days were 36 hours long, but until I can change the speed of the earth's spin, that will not happen, and I must adapt.
I agree that once a woman has made that choice she should be supported because it's no longer about her, but a child as well, but the point is if you can stop them from getting themselves deeper IF THEY ARE IN A BAD SITUATION then as a friend you have the responsibility to speak up and say it. No one is saying "well she made her bed she should lie in it" and no one is saying she shouldn't get welfare, she should, because there's no way she can support those children without it now, we're saying as friends we have the responsibility to look deeper into these situations to see if 1. it actually is in the best interest of the woman and the child and existing children, 2. if it will disable her in any way. It'd be great if we lived in a world where financially and emotionally everyone had the resources and support to take care of whatever amount of children they wanted, but they don't, and often women are left without enough food to go around even with welfare and we all know welfare doesn't provide enough, and often women are left without support, without childcare, without help getting places and doing things, and we can't pretend we don't live in that world because regardless, chances are that the women will be left in the cold.
I waited to comment on this post because of all the things being said but i see it is not going to calm down....
Ok it is not a right to stay home with your children...it IS a privelage. regardless to age gender, color, whatever you have the choice to stay home yes, but is it the right thing to do not always....I work a 24-7 job ( i am a live in nanny) and I do it because I want to better myself and save a bit of money so I wont need any help. I know the help is there for who needs it but like it say temporary assistance thats why there is a time limit on how much you can receive. welfare was not created to help mothers stay home with their children, it was created to provide the extra supplement from working a fucking shit minimum wage job or going to school.
staying home with your children is a hard job and people should be paid for it because it is so frustrating sometimes.....Staying home is your choice and your right as a mother but me personally cant survive off of the 240 a month that tanf pays women with children in florida.
as a young single mother whos family doesnt help her AT ALL i dont have the privelage of staying home with my son, although i would want to I cant because working full time pays more than tanf would ever pay. I dont bitch about my life because fuck it its here and i cant change it......
in terms of the article, its her right to have children yes......but think about it this way. if you came to gm wanting to have a child and needed our advice and you said yourself its not the best time financially I am very sorry I wouldnt just go tell you to have a child anyway. I would educate on the expenses of having a child and the effects it would have on your life....we have all done thins before when women have come with the same argument.
her life wasnt described very well in that article, but having more children and adding to an already hard situation doesnt seem like there is any thinking of consequences or life circumstances. I know that I use bc because I dont want anymore children....ever....thats my choice very much so. what im getting at here and i dont think I am doing it very well is that regardless to your age whatever you have choices but in return they may not be the right ones.....just cause you have the option doesnt mean you should always do it...
just to further explain my last sentance....i have the right to rob a bank but would it be in the best interest of the child I need to support....um no because I needto be here for him.......I have the right to have children yes but would it be in my best interest when i am already having a hard time? not so much
I don't see why it's so bad to tell people it might not be the best time for them anyways. I was thinking of TTC about a year and a half ago and I had a few people tell me it wasn't a good idea (Erika included). And although I initially got defensive, I realized about a month or so later, you know what? They are right. I wasn't in the best place and I'm glad I had friends willing to tell me to my face. Now that I am pregnant I'm still not in the best place, but I will make the best with what I have and I will still be an amazing mother, but do I wish it had come at a different time? Obviously. I was supposed to start school in September. But at least I'm in a better spot financially and emotionally then I was when I was thinking of TTC previously, and I'm super glad I didn't at that time. Not being in the best space for children or additional children is not a bad thing, being told it'd be better on you and on your children to wait is not a bad thing. Having friends who will not skip over LJ posts time and time again and will stop and say "Oh hey wait.. don't do that" even if it hurts to hear it, is better then having someone ignore your situation and ignore your questions and blindly support with a dumb smile on their face. I'd rather have someone take everything into consideration and tell me the truth then not care enough to make me think about it and give their honest opinion, because to me, THAT is support.
my point is your hesitance and uncomfortableness with calling it privilege is the heart of the issue, and has been all along for me. you are saying that we all recognize we have resources like internet and the ability to read a sentence more so than others (which is Privilege!)... yet somehow, the denial to call it privilege is persisting, and with it, it is preventing a comprehensive understanding of how the cards are stacked in your favor and less so for others, such as maybe this mother of 7 kids.
if you cannot feel humble about being able to read, you have a long, long way to go baby. reading is not a born-in right either, go ahead and ask the majority of the world's population. it's all about perspective and what you have shown of yours leads me to believe you have lived a privileged life, undoubtedly. you play victim, but why? to make yourself look better, stonger, or smarter? there's no need and it doesn't beget progress. there is no such thing as an even playing field where we start at "zero privilege," and where disadvantages and privileges cancel each other out in some kind of tally. we're all plus in some areas and minus in others.
well, first, you have to know they exist. then you have to have transportation to get to whatever office or agency to fill them out. if they don't have private transportation, they *may* have the option to take public if it's in their community, but for those of us who have taken the bus- you know how long it takes to get from a to b.
which brings up the time/$ issue... because then you have to come back to be interviewed with a shitload of more information. let's assume this person works- well, then they have to take off work and lose a day or two of wages to make the appointments. it's not an option for many who need the assistance. if they have kids, they may need childcare to get to the appointment. these are the tangible, logistical factors.
now let's look at some other relevant issues- depression is pretty rampant and higher in lower income areas. what is the main symptom of depression? apathy and lethargy. well, now this person who has no way logistically of getting there now has to fight themselves to get out of bed, to keep the perspective that it is worth the trouble to go do the paperwork for the long run, even though their depression clouds their ability to focus on anything other than the here and now. maybe their neighbor went through all the hastle and did all the paperwork and told them it wasn't worth the effort because they barely got enough back to make it worth the hastle, and they thought it was wise to listen and save themself the waste.
i mean, there could be a million reasons why someone doesn't do something. as individuals, people have different rationales, different personalities, and different motivators because they have different histories that made them this way.
thanks amy thats exactly what i was trying to get across but every time i mention something im wrong! or at least in her eyes. being a sahm is lame. . . no reason why getting into college is hard. . . people shouldn't get caught up in welfare. . . im so done with this everytime i say something i feel like erika is trying to prove that i have to right to say that. im tired of saying what i feel is important in my life isn't. you really should be less judgemental erika and realize just because you feel everyone should be able to do they can't always. . . what applies to you doesn't apply to everyone
And no one is saying those don't exist, people are saying we shouldn't let them break women, rather help them get around those things in order to make those available. And yes they are still available even to those people you're example'ing, they just need proper support and help in order to do it, which they won't get if we're like "well okay, just don't even try."
I grew up on welfare in a poor POC household that was full of abuse and addiction, made it through my own addictions and homelessness and mental issues and yet omg, with proper support, everything was still available to me. But that PROPER SUPPORT is key. I had more hurdles, but I made it around them, and now I help other women make it around them. And I think it's BS to let hurdles remain mountains and not help women through them. There's a difference between acknowledging privilege and letting it disable women. There's a difference between understanding why some POC in bad situations are in bad situations, and letting them stay there, or worse yet, encouraging it.
Erika is not saying that hardships don't exist, rather that there are still ways through them, and we should encourage women to keep pushing for it instead of letting them stay in bad situations or further eroding their situation by sitting by idly.
I've helped women IRL who were in bad relationships with mental issues and in poverty get on their feet, and there's no way it would have helped them if I had sat by idly while they made mistakes I knew would make it worse.
Please don't say "lame" ian&aidansmama, it's ableist.
I was thinking more of temporary assistance. And you have certain things you have to do monthly/weekly, etc ... and yes, they are valid things like, job searching, training, etc etc ... but really, if you don't have skills for decent jobs, how are you going to be able to sustain yourself after your assistance is gone, you know? And not everyone has the resources to go to college or get better training even with assistance.
I think as a society, we all need some type of support system. I can agree on that and I do think it would be beneficial for people in general to decide what they want to do in life. I remember when I was 18 years old, pregnant and almost done with high school - I had NO CLUE what I wanted to do in college and it took 2.5 years to figure that out & now I am going into something completely different.
But that's the thing, things ARE available to help out with that in so many cases. Like with aboriginals there are groups in Calgary that provide free training in job skills and then job placement. I work with a few of these groups and they have openings, it's not like it's hugely waitlisted, you can go here and get recognized training as a plumber, or a carpenter, and then they help you find a job once you have the training. We need to stop looking at obstacles as dead ends, for each of the things you're mentioning instead of saying "oh well they face that" we should be saying "well here's a way around it, here's a way to get it".
Because obstacles are not dead ends and it's not beneficial to anyone to act as if they are.
In my experience getting assistance requires more meetings and paperwork than getting grants and into college. I had to continually go in for verfication, weigh ins, income eligability, etc when on medicaid and WIC. I know that the one time we applied and were denied foodstamps we had to jump through hoops, fill out a thick application and go to a couple meetings.
Those things can be just as (or more) difficult when having kids as filling out a FAFSA and applying to a community college.
Exactly.
I was homeless when my son was small.
I had to take a taxi to get my son to school and myself to work every day and when I could not afford the taxi, I got a bike with a baby seat at the thrift store and rode it to and from daycare, work, home, even in the dead of winter.
It took forever, and I had to get up at 4am to leave for work and I didn't get home till after 6pm most days.
I worked my ass off to get to this point, and I really don't see how working hard and making something out of nothing is privileged.
It can be done and that is what we should be telling women.
We should not be making excuses for apathy, and that is unfortunately what a lot of this is.
haha, i was thinking the same thing.. i did the fafsa online, getting food stamps was freaking hard, timeconsuming, humiliating...
i take issue with a bunch of privileged people sitting around deciding what is best for others in a tight spot, which is partly why i'm getting out of counseling. it seems very utopic and unrealistic to think there will never be poor women with children on welfare. i am not saying that nothing should be done to help a sister out, but rather, i am interested in spreading understanding that we are all where we are on the food chain for various reasons that are often overlooked- both intentionally and not. absolutely, i agree that support is key. i think that is why so many of us on here are drawn to the social work/human services field. but it is very important to have a clear understanding of how personal choice becomes intersected by available options and life circumstance. understanding is essential for effective support, otherwise you have put yourself figuratively "up here," while the other person is stuck "down there." it's an attitude, a mentality. that's all i'm really saying.
I have an issue with a PWOC telling me as a POC that I'm privileged or that where I am today is because of privilege.
I am in many ways such as that I have a partner, but that doesn't negate areas in which I had more obstacles then a white woman will.
I've been through homelessness, meth addiction, abusive relationships and being aboriginal on top of it all, and I pushed through and found my way around obstacles and through them. That doesn't mean I'm some privileged woman sitting on my high horse at all the nether people below, and it's kind of weird to say that.
And in any case, there is a difference. Say a woman came in and had her kids at 30 and was raised super wealthy and inherited her money and never had a bad day in her life, her telling you that you can get to where she is would be insulting. The girls who are telling you this are previous teen mothers, women who have faced the same very obstacles and fought through it. That's hardly the same thing, and if you view it as the same then you're just not really opening your eyes to what they're saying.
I wanted to add, the whole "by your own advocate" thing comes to mind.
Sometimes there will be no one and no program to help you (like my situation).
That doesn't mean you are STUCK. It feels that way, but you have to have the mindset that you can get yourself and your family out of it and you have to do it alone.
haha, on a lighter note while I was typing this my son took my school ID card and now i can't log into my school email to get my info about financial aid for next semester! Ugh...hello obstacles!
Oh! I do believe there are many opportunities to have training and/or apprenticeship to get jobs. Sometimes there also isn't funding available. Where I work there is a big crunch this last month of the fiscal year to get help to people. I understand there's help out there, but I also think besides financial wise, jobs are a good thing to find something you actually LIKE doing. Which is where a support system and community can come in.
It's odd how I didn't know how much help out there, there actually until I had a kid. People w/o kids need help, too. We all know that.
I don't think that filling out paperwork was humiliating, to be completely honest ... when it comes to FAFSA and social assistance, it's something that needs to get done and why feel shameful of it? Yes, the people might sometimes make you feel like shit for actually doing it ... but I look past that.
I have never looked at an obstacle as a deadend.
it was the people in the office that made me feel humiliated...
That I can understand ... I think some of them need to work more on the social work aspect. I've noticed that more in larger cities. ND isn't too bad. I just brush it off, though.
misfit word.....
help is there for everyone...there is a program out there for everything...just because it may be difficult to obtain doesnt mean it isnt there.
i really hope this was not in refrence to any of us because if so it was rude....
Is it privlaged to get no child support? is it privlaged that I work a 24-7 day job to provide for my son....is it privlaged to have a bed to cry into at night when i think of having to be a single mom forever? because these are thethings that happen to me and im not sitting around deciding what is best for others in a tight spot.
Privlage to me is having an advantage....I dont think working all the fucking time, and going to schoolis a privlage.....im sorry getting into school is hard but most people can do it with the programs that are offered....
you make what you want with your life, weather you have to fight tooth and nail for it or if it is handed to you.......you have the power to change your path and the direction you choose.....again it may be difficult and that im not denying but dont have a pity party and say i will never be anything and no one will help me.....because no one helps anyone in this world...its a shame but its true...if you want something in life you have to have the drive and do it yourself.
this isn't an oppression hierarchy thread. i mean, different oppressions and obstacles are different for each person. it's not "i'm plus 3 (privileges), but minus 4 (oppressions or hardships) so i'm genuinely, legitimately oppressed because the balance is negative." who is to say what is better/worse/etc.? for example, erika says she never felt discrimination at her daycare from the older, wealthier mamas, but we may have expected she would have because that may be the more "typical" experience. assumptions are a big part of the problem- and this can work in both ways.
***and i don't think this was clear, but when i said "i take issue with a bunch of privileged people sitting around deciding what is best for others in a tight spot" i was not (intentionally) referring to this thread, but speaking generally in terms of policy makers, psychologists, and really anyone who feels like they have the authority to push (not just state, but actively manipulate) their personal opinion onto another person when they are in a position to influence another's life path.
I think that going to school CAN BE a prilvelge in the way that not all people have that option. Some people dropped out & need to get their GEDs and it costs money for that. And some people don't get all the grants, scholarships and loans to help with college and there's are barriers.
Yes, I have done tons of research on my own to find out more & more funding for school and have found it. Again, that's where I think more of these programs can be put out there more so people can find out more!
It can be hard and we all work our asses off through school (and whatever else), but it can be a privlege to go to school. Especially when comparing it to many others around the world that DON'T that option. Like, ever.
And there is tons of help out there, you just gotta look for it, I agree. It's hard and time consuming, but completely worth it. I think more people need to go look for it, there does need to be more people that can educate others about these programs.
By most people going to school, is hard ... and most people can do it. Not necessarily, there are a lot of people in the world that can't.
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