i am very interested in this topic, especially after a workshop i took on it at the mama gathering left me not fulfilled and educated, but disgruntled and frustrated. apparently, i can really only learn or relate to mamas who not totally privileged, but thats besides the point.
i don't claim to know the answers to this area of motherhood, and i am very interested in what your thoughts are in this issue. so i guess i'll just ask you all some questions, that will hopefully start some sort of dialogue.
what is your idea of feminism?
to me, its roots lie in the empowerment of women, but it branches off into many other areas and sub-areas. so basically, to ME, a feminist boy would be someone who understood and respected the issues that women face, and worked to use his inherent privilege to further women's issues. ....or something like that (i'm still trying to get my head around this).
what do you think of boys who are in a stage where they are basically living out the stereotypical male attitudes?
i tried really, really hard to get noah to be this non-gendered person. i didn't buy into stereotypes, i encouraged him to be an individual, and not a gender, and it was going so well for a while. but now that he's 3, he is obsessed with anything that has to do with being "strong," and "tough," and "powerful." superheros, SPIDERMAN, fighting, spaceships and adventures, and more, are pretty much the only thing he cares about. its like watching the boy i thought i was raising to be my kid, turn into this creature from the planet stereotypical jerkie boy. awful.
what are your ideas on how we can allow our kids to feel proud of who they are, including allowing our boys to be proud of their "male"ness instead of shaming them by throwing their privilege back in their faces?
at the workshop, people mentioned letting your boys let out their inherent aggression in healthy ways, like through crafts or sports, but there must be more ways than just that.
any ideas?
it really troubles me how much my kid has morphed into the stereotypical boy, despite my best efforts to raise him in a more conscientious way. i don't have a male partner, so i'm sol there, so please don't advise me to let him hang out with nice guys to learn how to be a nice guy (like they even exist).
God I hate it when people suggest a "good male rolemodel".
Like I said in the other thread, it is really hard to raise your boys to be feminist allies because they go off to school and interact with other kids who have asshats for parents and instill sexist theorys in their kids minds.
Matthias tells me that "Ryan" and his dad are going to play baseball at the park and he wants to go. He then asks if J is busy. Why? Because he thinks of sports as male dominated. It infuriates me.
I have explained to him over and over that the only difference between boys and girls is their private parts.
I painted Malakhi's toenails the other day because he wanted me to and Matthias said he's a girl now. I don't know why or how he got this way.
But I don't like it.
There's a book I want to read that kinda relates called <u>Beyond Dolls & Guns: 101 Ways to Help Children Avoid Gender Bias</u> by Susan Hoy Crawford. I like Ariel Gore's advice in Hip Mama Survival Guide to offer toys that are traditionally for boys AND traditionally girls for both gender kids. She let her daughter play with Barbies but also bought her a train set. My son use to have a barbie but I threw it out with the plan to get some groovy girls & boys. There's a book about a boy with a doll called William's Doll by Charlotte Zolotow that someone suggested in the progressive childrens books thread at the old boards (we need another one of those threads in the book forum).
I think that rather than discourage boys from playing sports and doing other traditionally "male" things, I like to share those things with my son to show that girls/woman can have an interest in (and be good at) them too.
I also want to get more chidrens books with females as the main character. we read a lot of fiction and nonfiction childrens books & I'd like to get some childrens books about important women in history.
word.
i agree on the books thing, and here are some that were recommended to me during the workshop, by some really intelligent sounding women:
Oliver Button is a Sissy
Paperbag Princess
Free To Be You And Me
No Biting
those ones were all suggested for children, and i *think* i got the titles right (i just transcribed them based on how it sounded when they said the titles, they might not be exactly right tho... sorry).
also, for parents i was told good books would be
Fighing Monsters
which is supposed to be based on the obsession some kids, mostly boys, have with aggression and violence, and how you can promote healthy ways to expend that energy. i don't know about you all, but i think i better get this book soon.
Who's Calling the Shots
thats the other one for parents/caregivers. can't remember the description, and i have to make sure my boychild doesn't tear down the house, so i don't really have the attention needed to look it up.
i'd be interested in doing a sort of book club thing on the books for mamas, if you guys are interested. it just feels like i am floundering with this whole area of motherhood, and it'd be good to learn/feel like i'm not alone.
I just posted this on another thread but Paper Bag Princess by Robert Munch and Free to be You and Me by Marlo Thomas are fantastic books.
I just posted in the book forum about the thread from the old boards & asked everyone to post their favorite progressive childrens books again.
I think reading a parenting book next with the book club is a great idea. I suggested like a week or two ago that we read another book & suggested two books (in the anyone interested in reading another book together thread) & the books tied so we're reading both. so maybe we could wait till after we read those two books so we can get more people to participate.?
Also a couple movies suggestions with stong female characters
Kiki's Delivery Service
Whalerider
oh the books can totally wait. but you'd be into it, after the other ones were done?
sorry, i was outta town and off the boards for a while, i didn't realize there was already a book club started. :oops:
no problem. and yes, I'd totally be into it. do you have one paticular book in mind or should we do a poll with all of the parenting books mentioned in this thread?
ive gotta get back to work but im definately interested in this topic as well.
any of those books sound interested. lemme know whats up.
Kaya, thanks for starting this topic.
First, about me:
I consider myself a feminist.
I have a two year old boy and I am partnered with a man.
My objective with my son, besides the other obvious parts about wanting him to be happy and true to himself, is to raise a compassionate person who understands that being a boy with white skin means he will be afforded priveledge that most people in the world do not have. I want him to be able to put himself in other people's shoes. I want him to feel like the right thing to do is to is to intervene where there is injustice.
At two that means we talk about feelings a lot, and have a zero tolerance policy on violence.
There's an aggression there that surfaces that some folks tell me is about being a boy, but I'm not so sure. For one, I am what some would call a tomboy in the extreme. I'm the one with the powertools, sports backround, mechanical know-how, etc. in the family. I appreciate that hitting something (couch, punching bag) can sometimes make you feel better. So my strategy is also to revel with him in the joy of running around with a fly swatter smacking anything in sight (as long as it's an inanimate object), and revel in spiderman, and encourage him to be a parent to his baby doll or stuffed Elmo or stuffed frog or whatever. Show him that I can run and jump and play ball and enjoy it, and that taking care of something tenderly and with affection is rewarding, too.
I think we're doing OK...
Sometimes he insists that he's Spiderman. Sometime he insists that he's a girl. Sometimes he's a cat. I give them all equal validation.
He helps to cook and clean. It's about getting the job done and learning survival skills. And learning about helping other people!
So far he seems to be a kind compassionate kid.
Someday he'll go off and be surrounded by fuckheads, so I have no fear of laying on thick at this point. I hope it sticks.
Kaya, thanks for starting this topic.
First, about me:
I consider myself a feminist.
I have a two year old boy and I am partnered with a man.
My objective with my son, besides the other obvious parts about wanting him to be happy and true to himself, is to raise a compassionate person who understands that being a boy with white skin means he will be afforded priveledge that most people in the world do not have. I want him to be able to put himself in other people's shoes. I want him to feel like the right thing to do is to is to intervene where there is injustice.
At two that means we talk about feelings a lot, and have a zero tolerance policy on violence.
There's an aggression there that surfaces that some folks tell me is about being a boy, but I'm not so sure. For one, I am what some would call a tomboy in the extreme. I'm the one with the powertools, sports backround, mechanical know-how, etc. in the family. I appreciate that hitting something (couch, punching bag) can sometimes make you feel better. So my strategy is also to revel with him in the joy of running around with a fly swatter smacking anything in sight (as long as it's an inanimate object), and revel in spiderman, and encourage him to be a parent to his baby doll or stuffed Elmo or stuffed frog or whatever. Show him that I can run and jump and play ball and enjoy it, and that taking care of something tenderly and with affection is rewarding, too.
I think we're doing OK...
Sometimes he insists that he's Spiderman. Sometime he insists that he's a girl. Sometimes he's a cat. I give them all equal validation.
He helps to cook and clean. It's about getting the job done and learning survival skills. And learning about helping other people!
So far he seems to be a kind compassionate kid.
Someday he'll go off and be surrounded by fuckheads, so I have no fear of laying on thick at this point. I hope it sticks.
Thank you so much for starting this post.
As a fierce feminist mama, who is the mother of a *gasp* nearly 3 year old son (where does the time go???) and who is partnered with a man also raised by a feminist - I find this issue is a pretty big one in my family.
I have some advantages in that the father here is also interested in raising a boy who is empowered to be a good person rather than a good man and who is aware that women are also people. But that doesn't mean that we don't get issues with extended family - namely MY parents.
Every christmas it's the same things. Clothes with camoflage and "little soldier/trooper" references, toy guns, G I joe dolls, etc. Not stuff I want around my kid. I've told my parents over and over that I am not raising cannon fodder for the Military/Industrial complex which currently runs our country, nor am I raising a macho-jerk who thinks that might makes right. But it is really hard to explain to a 2 or 3 year old why his cool new toys are taken away as soon as we leave Nana's.
We try really hard to get him around positive male influences. I have no problem with many superheros. They are about using their special gifts to protect people and defeat mean people. So, superman and spiderman and wonder woman and such are frequent guests of honor at my son's tea parties. Yes, tea parties and I didn't start this. He got the idea from watching an Arthur episode where DW has a tea party and he thought it would be a really good idea, except that his tea parties are strategy meetings where all the superheroes and heroines get together and figure out how to convince the villains that there are better ways to be cool than being mean. Of course, the villains never listen so then we get to kick their butts.
He's a complicated little boy. and I love him for it.
But even with all his talking it out, notice that their is still some butt kicking. And also, every once in a while, he'll do such a throw back. Like when we were playing soccer at the park last week. It was myself, Jack (my husband), our friend Chris and Liam. And I made 2 goals in a row, and Liam says "Momma, stop winning! Boys win, not girls." I was completely floored. And I ask him where he got this idea, and he just looks and shrugs.
Needless to say, Jack and I had a very long talk with him about how whoever is best should win, not just because they are a boy or a girl.
Does anyone else have these issues????????
jeremy wants our kid to join boy scouts and while some troops are better than others i still have issues with the org in general. the girl scouts, as a whole, is so much more progressive.
and jeremy has also talked about taking lucien hunting and fishing when he gets older. first i have issues with sporting that involve the death of animals but, i had to ask if he would do the same if we were having a girl. i went fishing with my dad when i was younger and actually have some really great memories from those trips. he said "yes" but part of me is still skeptical.
and why are all of these "male" activities (and kinda border on survivalist, ubermensch-esque). what about going to museums, painting, baking, farming/gardening, other neutral or *gasp* "girl" activities?
right now im a bit too emotional to have a level conversation about this with him but its really important to me that we raise balanced children.
I think Kids have the best advantage when they're exposed to all kinds of activities. Fishing and museums and comic books and superheros don't even seem all that gender specific anyway.
But I know what folks are saying. Sometimes enough is enough!!!
I hope my son grows to respect women and girls as human beings not stereotypes who exist only to serve or pleasure them. I don't know how sucessful I've been so far, but he can sure tie up the phone line talking with girls. Hmmmm... ?
Yeah, I wouldn't want any son of mine in boy scouts. They discriminate against athesits & gays (but you probably already knew that since you said you have issues with them). Check out [URL=http://www.scoutingforall.org/]this org[URL] working to try to get the boy scouts to change their policy regarding gays & athesits.
besides the fact that the boy scouts are discriminatory my dad pointed it that it can be considered early preparation for military service, that might not be all it is but there are a few similarities between the scouts and boot camp in a loose sense. especially if you tend to be anti-war/anti-military practices this is another turn off about the boy scouts.
i'm so glad you brought this topic up since i was considering starting one in my lj about it!
i don't know that i went into this parenting gig thinking i was going to raise my boy as a feminist since when the parenting gig started for me i wasn't really all that political and so it has come slowly.
one of the things about them growing up that i have found with my noah is that they evnetually form opinions of their own that are, sadly, often influenced by outside sources.
my boy is and has been "typical boy" for a long time. and it used to really freak me out. he went through the superhero obsessions and has now moved on to all things sports related. like, he will literally turn on the tv and say he is going to watch "whatever sports are on".
the thing is, there is so much more to him than that. he loves to cuddle with his mama in bed, he plays with our new kitten like it is his son and he totally cuddles it, he is in general, one of the most amazingly compassionate people i have ever met. this, to me, is a huge step in the goal to raising a feminist boys.
there is an incredible book i am reading called raising cain: the emotional lives of boys (or something close to that) that talks about what boys go through in society when they go from being children into being thrust into this "macho" role, not necessarily by parents but my societal messages. i think it relates hugely into this
one thing i do right now with noah is introduce him to things like the WNBA (which has proven pretty easy since the NBA is over and he needs his b-ball fix somehow :wink:
ugh, this is getting rambly so i'll try to wrap it up. i try to embrace noah for all his interests. i encourage that part of him that i fear will rsk getting squasshed as he ventures out into this non-feminist world we live in. i try to have conversations about things feminist in nature when the opportunity arises, like respecting people's needs to not be touched sometimes (i have a kind of aggressively huggy kid).
as a baby he dressed in all "boy" baby clothes because those were the hand-me-downs passed our way. he got all the sports, trucks, etc books for gifts, but i always emphasized that there was more to him than the "brutish boy sterotype" and i think that is coming through. i think one of the most important things i am doing is as yet unspoken. sort of. mama isn't married and is making a life for herself. i have told him i may never choose to get married and that is alright. he knows that being a girl doesn't keep me from doing anything (save maybe pee standing up).
i don't know if that made anysense but i am following this thread with great enthusiasm and interest. thanks for starting it!
The man I'm dating is a pretty good feminist, but he wasn't always that way. As a kid, he played with"boy" type toys, like action heroes, and being the tough guy, but as an adult he recognized his privelege as a man and has been thoughtful and respectful of this in life and in romantic relationships with me and the other women he has dated.
Until last december, my little boy didn't really have a man in his life. He lived with me and sister, and was around a whole lot of girliness. Maybe it's wrong, but my favorite color is pink, and that's Bella' favorite too. In general, Gavin enjoyed (and still enjoys) playing dress-up girly style, he adores pink (his favorite hat is pink) and getting into my make-up. But one thing I noticed was, from a very young age, whenever we watched TV or movies, he preferred to emulate the male, or strong character. Gavin and Bella watch the same movies, but Gavin prefers to "be" The Beast rather than a Disney Pirncess. Noone told him to do this, he wasn't in pre-school when this started, it just happened.
I suppose my point is that the behavior of a toddler in no way reflects his future behavior as a grown man. Thinking he may be a jerk just because he likes "tough guy" stuff now is kind of like worrying he will pick his nose, or do some other toddler behavior as an adult.
i have two cousins who made it to eagle scout. both are in the air force. one was in iraq in the spring.
ive never been much for "god and country" organisations and the boy scouts definately has more of that than girl scouts.
this will be an ongoing discussion im sure.
I wouldn't want a son of mine in Boy Scouts, but it does seem that the effect it has really depends on the boy. My best friend was an Eagle Scout, and he is one of the most thoughtful, openminded people I know.
I am 100% kidless but wow, this is an amazing thread for me to read. I argue with my mother constantly. She says that it would be okay to, when I am older, paint my "son's" toenails but it would CONFUSE him to be put in a dress. What the hell? It's called dress up! I played dress up my entire life because SHE made a big box for my sister and I and filled it with tons of things for us to play in and dress in. She thinks that that is different because we were older and were picking our own things. I want to raise feminist boys when I am older but for now what I want to do is guide my male friends (and boyfriend) into being the strongest feminists they can. I know you may not have thought about it when you started this thread but it applies to these (almost) grown guys as well. Thanks again for starting such a wonderful thread :P