I have read articles by this guy and it super informed my parenting. Now, with my kid almost 5, I have finally read his book. Has anyone else read Unconditional Parenting? I found it to be really good for helping me constantly evaluate my relationship with my child, and the ways I interact with her.
The only problems I have with it, have more to do with society making it hard for me to make a lot of those parenting decisions, as opposed to having problems with the decisions themselves. Luckily, Kohn also is critical of culture and not just parents.
I hate misogynist blame mommy books. But I also hate the hyper-post-feminist "no one ever challenge/judge me on how I parent" attitude. I think its really useful to be able to reconsider our actions, and have dialogue around issues that different families have. I feel like I mostly see the pendulum swing one way or the other. On one hand people are so afraid of judgment (and rightfully so! our society is so unfriendly to families) that they think its inappropriate to suggest that something they are doing might not be effective, or might have shitty consequences. Or on the other side, people expect us to be supermoms, and have a happy child that never cries and only eats organic super food, and we do it all alone, most likely in our big house while the husband is at work. I like to think that I have agency in how I parent, can raise her in positive ways despite my vaguely self employed punk hippie status, and am open to suggestions. But I also experience hardships and oppression and sometimes act in ways that, upon reflection, I don't like. I felt like this book left room for that, which is awesome.
Seriously, I think everyone should read it. If for no other reason than to question conventional ideas about discipline that maybe a lot of us in American culture take for granted.
Huh, that makes me want to read it! I agree with you on the judgment thing, I think in our efforts to support mothers we can definitely go overboard and ignore the impact on kids. Which in a way kind of devalues the importance of mothering. I think we can be critical without being mother-blaming, especially since parenting practices are so socially constructed.
I have a friend who stopped reading it because she said it was like the book of guilt to her. She also doesn't like reading parenting books at all though because she feels that when they prescribe parenting practices and she tries to follow them that she is parenting inauthentically, that it's better for her to think critically and evaluate her own parenting. Which makes a lot of sense to me. Although personally I do enjoy the occasional good parenting book, when I actually have time to read them, which has not happened for a few years now. LOL!
hmm that's an interesting perspective on parenting books. I guess I look at them the way I look at the teaching theories I am taught. It sounds great on paper, but in practice you will have to modify it and make it your own in order for it to be useful. I think parenting books help you to think critically about your own parenting. I get a lot of teaching theory in my classes as I said and right now I am in classroom management. I am constantly comparing my parenting to the theories I am learning. I find myself thinking 'what are you saying' as I am saying stupid things to my son in a moment of frustration. In my management we are actually reading an alfie kohn book. my prof loves him maybe I will have to pick up this book for some summer reading.
I read parts of it, and I would like to read it. I think he has a lot of really good things to say.
It's not my favorite parenting book. I walked away from it with a long list of things the author thinks is harmful, but not a lot of new parenting skills as alternatives to these more mainstream practices.
I haven't read it. What sorts of things did the author think were harmful?
He seems to think just about everything is harmful, and the more I read, the less I like. He doesn't like any kind of discipline or reward system, the only thing he seems to support is reasoning, talking things through with kids. Which I think is great, but if my kid hurts somebody, I want them to have a consequence. Reasoning is a great part of my reaction to my kids doing something wrong, but it just isn't enough in my opinion. I don't think it's an either or. Besides, he has tons of negative stuff to say about kids receiving rewards, or even earning things. I get what he's saying a lot of the time, but it's not very practical when it comes down to handling situations with kids. I think it's really important to talk to kids about why something isn't okay or is dangerous, but I don't think that's a substitute for providing rewards and consequences. And yes, I agree that the book is full of guilt-inducing statements, even for parents who never punish their kids.
For example, if you want your kids to do a chore, you might explain to them why it needs to be done, how it will help you, etc. But he doesn't support saying something like, "after we get our rooms clean, we get to go outside." He thinks outside should be a given, whether the room gets cleaned or not. He goes so far as to say that when you have a reward for something, it is like with holding love. Like to him it's the same as saying, I don't love you until your room is clean. I think that's kind of rediculous. It makes sense for children to be expected to complete a task that needs to be completed before they get to do what they want, assuming the task is age appropriate. I do agree with him that you should never with hold love or affection from your kids, but he takes it a lot further.
Haha, I didn't even notice the author when I first read this thread. I was reading your response, Mamabutterfly, and was thinking to myself, "wow, that sounds a lot like Alfie Kohn." *Then* I noticed who wrote the book.
Keep in mind, I have not read the book, but here are my thoughts based on other articles of his that I have read:
I really like the idea of moving away from rewards and punishments. You've all heard the saying, if you want your kids to love reading, you shouldn't tell them to read, instead you should read with them? It seems like the same idea can be applied more broadly. For instance, he suggested that instead of praising a child for doing something nice for someone else, you might try pointing out how happy it made that person feel. So instead of finding joy in the reward for his kindness, he's finding joy in the act of kindness itself. It seems like a really powerful way to shift one's focus. Obviously, practice is far more messy than theory, but that doesn't negate the value of the theory, you know? What I've tried to do in the past is think about what's really important to me in parenting, and then base my choices on that. So for instance, I might give praise/rewards for something that's truly a chore, that needs to get done, but that I don't how it plays into his values system. But for something more important to me, I would try to be more deliberate in my approach (note the kindness example above).
ahh yes... in my management class we are pushed completely away from any type of reward system or punishment system. These are the things Alfie wants us to get rid of when dealing with kids. However, obviously there are consequences to our actions, thus logical or natural consequences should be used. So, if a kid does not do their homework-- they shouldn't get recess taken away, instead the logical consequence is that they will not be able to participate in say the class discussion because they will not know what is going on. I guess you should just point that out. I really think that kids need a more concrete way to get to that point and sometimes a reward/punishment system might aid in that. I don't know... I fall off the bandwagon a lot and use rewards and even time out!! (haha) But as long as there is dialogue and it's not just 'sit in the corner for 10 minutes' I think these systems can help. A lot of time I use time when I need a break from my son before i do something out of anger.
Totally hear yous on the aiming to use natural consequences when they're practical! And they seem to be less and less for us lately. :S
I agree with him more when it's applied to the classroom than I do when it's applied to parenting.
i agree-- it makes more sense for a classroom. i actually fought out putting pants back on with Devin today instead of using a reward! He has reverted to peeing in his pants like 3 times a day (he hasn't peed in his pants in a month) so I am having him take off his own clothes now. So he really fought me on it, but I stuck to it, didn't get super frustrated, and he finally gave in. Man this terrible twos stage is tough.
May I ask why you both think his theories make more sense in the classroom than in parenting? I sort of think the opposite, just because incentives (such as, say, grades) can be useful in managing/motivating a large group of kids, whereas on a one-to-one basis it becomes more feasible to take the time to reason with a child, you know?
First of all, I don't think a teacher's job is to discipline. I think a lot of children fall into a bad cycle in school, of losing recesses, getting poor grades, and feeling like a failure. I think that a lot of times, these children are either having emotional problems, problems at home, or a disability that makes it harder for them to be able to keep up with the rest of the class. I am strongly against taking recess away. I think recess should always be a given. Children, especially those having trouble in school, need that break. I don't think schools give children enough breaks as it is.
I think the purpose of school should be instilling a sense of joy in learning, as opposed to completion of a certain number of tasks, or attainment of a certain level. All children are different. If a child doesn't enjoy completing their math assignment for example, using punishments and rewards is not going to encourage them to want to learn math, and will in fact backfire. As a homeschooling parent, I found that my child who hated math started to love it when she learned how important it was for her science projects.
I think our schools are in a state of crisis, and have a very long way to go, but I think alfie kohn has a lot to say that could help push us in the right direction. I might have more thoughts on the subject later. I'm exhausted right now.
Exactly! I couldn't say it better.
The rewards and punishments dished out in come schools are often times senseless and humiliating. It does not make sense to force a kid to sit in their seat for 30 minutes, and then punish them with no recess for getting up, calling out, or fidgeting. Obviously the student have energy to burn so you have to let them do it unless you want to keep punishing the student for not sitting in the chair because the student missed the chance to burn of some of that energy.
I think that it is the teacher's job to discipline the students while they are under the teacher's watchful eye as lessons are going on. However discipline can be done through behavior mangement instead of punishments. The teacher is not there to control the students' behaviors, but to manage them and give students more appropriate behaviors to choose instead of the negative.
I know this is all much easier said than done, but it is worth trying to give students a more intrinsic want to learn than to punish them.
i agree with you but theres one key factor in making this work........
smaller classrooms. Teachers have a really hard job and they dont get a break when they have double the kids they should. J is in a great class and has a great teacher that actually directs him but she has less children.
alot of the time teachers have no choice because they simply dont have the resources to individualize attention.
this is true... so basically i won't get a job for years and then i'll have this huge classroom that i won't be able to apply any of the theory that i have learned... i think i chose the wrong profession haha
Anyone read 'The Case Against Competition'?