I think it's no one's business but the woman's. It's ageist to assume that because of her age, she's too old to have a child. I think women of that age should be educated on the risks that can occur if they chose to get pregnant at that age, but other than that, I don't see a problem with it.
Personally, I think that if she really wanted a baby, it's great that she was able to have one. Men have been having children into their 80's and 90's without people getting all huffy about it for a long time.
Yes, because she's older she probably won't live as long, but who's to say that a 20 year old won't get hit by a bus tomorrow? And there are risks for anyone having a baby, whether they are young or old, conceiving by themselves or with fertility treatments.
The older you get there are more risks involved, and you are much less likely to be there for your child during the important transitional stages. However, it is her choice and I only hope the best for her.
I was more talking about the risks of certain disorders and ailments in the child (if concieved with her own egg) due to the age of the egg. I think in most events like this though, it's not the woman's own egg, but rather an implanted fertilized ovum from a donor.
a man has a child at 70 and nobody bats an eye....
I think its cool, If she was willing to take the risks and was informed of said risks thats her decision to make. Wether should could have concieved without intervention I dont know.
I dont think they should have age limits on fertility treatments, is there a minimun too?
Do you have to be 18 or can you undergdo fertility treatments with parental consent before that?
Im babbling
I personally would "bat an eye" if i heard of a 70 year old man having a child. Not because I think hes too old, just because its not something im used to hearing about or seeing. I dont deny I would be suprised. Its the same for women who are getting older too with me. So, "nobody bats an eye" minus me...
I find it interesting that when a man of say, 70 has a child with a woman who is probably younger...people will be surprised..but then think, "gee he must really want a child, he must really love kids, good for him."
But then when a woman has a child when she's older it's, "you know..she should've thought about having kids earlier...blah blah blah she's not very smart for putting it off for so long." etc. and all that shit.
When it comes to the end of this its a womens decision and NO ONE should be able to take that away! NO ONE!!
It is true that she might not be around for her whole life and then she will have to be put with a family member or foster care but that can happen to anyone. That could happen to me and I am 18 and I could get into an accident and well Andrew would have to be with someone else(ewww dont want to think about that-just trying to prove a point)
Who the hell do people think they are to try to say that someone is too old. Thats just like saying someone is too young!!
Who the hell do people think they are to try to say that someone is too old. Thats just like saying someone is too young
I don't think those are comparable situations.
Personally, I don't think that it is acceptable to legislate limits in either direction regarding who ought to be able to have a child. I do, however, think that this was a really bad idea. Additonally, I think that the cases mentioned in that article ragarding older men who have gone through similar procedures were bad ideas. Like it states, these parents will be in their seventies and eighties when their children are entering high school. I think that is one point in a plethora of points against the rationality, practicality and thoughtfulness of this decision. I think that technology is getting the best of us, promoting unhealthy and competitive natures wherein humans are becoming too interested in pushing the limits of what they can accomplish without enough regard for the consequences that are necessary results.
My best friend in high school, her parents were 65.
They were also very loving, always there for her, very active, and her family was much more a 'family' than I could ever hope for with my own "normal aged" parents.
Who are you, who is ANYONE to judge what makes a good or bad parenting environment based on ageism?
I am a human being expressing my opinion on an issue that was raised to gather opinions. I did not comment on the nature of the person, or her abilities. I do think that it was a generally bad idea, I'm sorry that it offends you. I did preface my comment with my belief that we should not be able to legislate reproductive rights, and that is how I feel. I don't think that it is out of place for me to offer my opinion, when it is requested, on any concept. I am not claiming any sort of authority thus I am not saying that I am right. But, by virtue of my species, I think and I express those thoughts. If this issue was not controversial, it would not have been raised.
I'd also like to add, that I think that this comment was uneccessary and of an attaking nature. I think that by virtue of the question that caused this thread, all comments are, generally speaking, judgements on the issue. I don't like how I have to expect to be called names when I dissent from popular opinion.
As a (hopefully!) future physician, I look at it from the doctor's point of view. I don't know if I could attempt to get a woman past menopausal age pregnant because of health risks TO THE WOMAN herself (not because of age). This is because her body is not made for making babies anymore...any type of invasive surgery or health practice (like using fertility drugs) are obviously going to take a toll on a person's body. In medical ethics, it's hard to justify doing something that may (or probably will) cause more harm to a patient (fertility drugs, cesarean section, the fact that it's hard enough for young and healthy women to heal from childbirth) than good. Also think malpractice.
This, of course, does not mean that I think there should be laws against it (which I don't think there should be at all), but that this is very risky and as a physician I probably would not do it.
Popular opinion does not mean it's okay. Prejudism and ageism is not okay in any context.
In a site that's meant for support AGAINST ageism, for a site that battles ageism and fights to prove that age does NOT play a factor, I would hope to see more open minds when it comes to the other 'extreme' on the ladder.
Popular opinion does not mean it's okay. Prejudism and ageism is not okay in any context.
is not a valid inferrence from what I said:
Quote:
I don't like how I have to expect to be called names when I dissent from popular opinion.
In fact, it completely twists what I was saying. My point was that my opinion dissented from the general consensus of this thread (read: the popular opinion that I was referring to) and as a result I was called judgemental. And, as you will note, I didn't like that. Thus, as I hope it now appears, I was not saying that my opinion was part of popular opinion and thus I am right, but rather that my opinion is NOT part of the popular opinion here but that does not mean that you should call me names as a result. Please don't put words in my mouth.
My comments have nothing to do with age but with health status. It would be one thing if she was still menstruating. I think it's irresponsible practicing of medicine to use in vitro and other fertility meds to help someone get pregnant who is post-menopausal. I think it's more damaging to the woman's health than doing good.
It presents me as being morally inferior. Like I said, this thread and all threads inviting opinion entail judgement (regarding an issue). Thus, I find your comment (regarding my apparantly judgemental nature) essentially pointless except for the fact that it props up your own opinion. Listen, you can argue all you want that you were entitled to characterize me like that. My point is that it was merely a tactic involving an attack to make my argument appear necessarily flawed.
I think it was a bad idea, insulting my nature is not a productive way to argue it with me. I think there are many reasons why this is a bad idea although I wholeheartedly agree that this is something that should not be legislated. Additionally, I don't think that I can say what people ought to do. I think that Erika is raising some good points for why this could be considered a bad idea (my wording), and I think that there are many more.
I think that in this situation, age does play a role. I think that there are severe health risks, among many other things. If this makes you consider me an ageist, so be it. At school, I'm called a murderer for my abortion views, and a slut for being a parent. It only serves to characterize my point as irrelevant, and it certainly is not. I dislike your tactics.
so is it possible to not be totally into the idea of a 66 year old woman having a baby, without being judgmental? that's a real question, not snarky or rhetorical. but if not, it seems like the fear of being seen as judgmental precludes any real depth of conversation. articles like this get at me much more than adhering to the position of "it's her choice, no one can say that's wrong!" would allow me to express.
i suppose i'm tired of party lines and a=b=c logic of "if you don't agree with this, you must not be prochoice/support teen moms either!", because it doesn't let any of us who might really be thinking otherwise express that, and thus we don't hear any compelling arguments against the beliefs we hold.
i'm hesitant to post anything more here, because i don't want to be added to the short list of judgmental people at girlmom.
what kind of response are we supposed to give here? i don't think it is a great idea but what is done is done. i'm going to defer to what revolt and erika have already said. i had a good friend whose father was in his 70s when she was in junior high (mom was much younger) and she hated that he couldn't do some of the things she wanted to. i'm sure we could pull out stories from both sides, you know? anecdotes don't really serve much purpose though.
i wonder about this woman's physical health. my mother is realtively healthy at 51 and i can't imagine her having a baby right now and healing quickly. i see a marked difference in her energy level now as opposed to a couple of years ago.
if she came to me tomorrow and were pregnant, i wouldn't judge her or tell her she can't or shouldn't do it, but i'd be concerned.
I am not going to say anything negative about the woman having the child or her reasons/decision to do so, but I also would not medically help her get pregnant when I do not believe it is okay for her health-wise.
It seemed ageist because the only 'point in a plethora of points' that you offered to support the fact that it is a bad idea, was the following:
Quote:
Like it states, these parents will be in their seventies and eighties when their children are entering high school.
It seemed, from that, that you were questioning their parenting capability because of their age. I think a parent can offer the love and support that is needed to raise a child regardless of age. If you had offered more insight into what that meant so that I wasn't left to assume that you were questioning their parenting skills due to age, or offered more points such as Erika did about the health concerns of the woman entering pregnancy past menopause, in your argument about why it could be a bad idea than I'd agree and take it as a good point and a chance to learn more about it. The way it was worded sounded ageist, if you weren't implying that they wouldn't be good parents based solely on their age, then I wouldn't have second-guessed your post.
wow. you know, its not how old they will be that matters. It's how young they will leave their children. Do you know how traumatic it is to have a parent die before you're even twenty? This woman is apt to die before her child is twelve!
That's what seems so selfish. Not because she wont be a good parent, but because there is a good possibility she wont be able to be a parent for very long. And her death will seem so untimely to her child- left all alone at twelve, thirteen? Maybe that's why women go through menapause when they do in the first place. Not just because it becomes to physically stressful for them to have kids, but because nature doesn't want these children left alone when their mothers die of old age ten years after they're born.
I'm sure this woman will make a fantastic, loving mother, for the decade or so she has left.
dancing_in_the_nude ~ That was a very good point. I don;t think it is about her being that old and not being able to parent but with her age there are health issues(could be or in the near future) and that leaves the child alone at a young age. It's not that she can't parent her correctly. But to loose a parent ever nevermind at a young age is traumatic and horrible.
wow. you know, its not how old they will be that matters. It's how young they will leave their children. Do you know how traumatic it is to have a parent die before you're even twenty? This woman is apt to die before her child is twelve!
That's what seems so selfish. Not because she wont be a good parent, but because there is a good possibility she wont be able to be a parent for very long. And her death will seem so untimely to her child- left all alone at twelve, thirteen? Maybe that's why women go through menapause when they do in the first place. Not just because it becomes to physically stressful for them to have kids, but because nature doesn't want these children left alone when their mothers die of old age ten years after they're born.
I'm sure this woman will make a fantastic, loving mother, for the decade or so she has left.
I understand what your saying, but there are a lot of people who have a risk of dying in 10 years, and they still have children. Many people live beyond their 70's these days. All of my grandparents did. If she is in good enough condition to be pregnant and have a baby at that age, who's to say that she wont live until she is 80 or older?
I just want to say that it makes me uncomfortable that she is having a baby at this age- for the health risks to her and to the child, as well as her ability to take care of children because of her energy level, especially as her kid gets older. Personally, I do think it is a bit selfish of her and somewhat unfair to the child. Of course it is her choice, but the younger you are, the less likely you will be to have problems. If I knew I was going to die in ten years (not saying she will), I would definitely not TTC - I think it would be selfish of me. And yes, I have been kind of afraid to explain my opinion on this subject because I have been attacked for my opinion on this board before. I would not have made this post if others hadn't already because it hurts to be attacked by everyone and labeled as "ageist" or "judgemental". It is not judgemental to have an opinion, it is judgemental to tell people that their opinion is wrong.
What bugs me is the earlier responses to this post keep saying that when older men have children, nobosy reacts negatively. I strongly disagree. When older men (rock stars, actors, tycoons) marry younger (usually beautiful) women, you always hear that she wanted money and he wanted a sexy trophy wife. I've never heard people act as though it's normal for an old man to have a baby. And even in celebrity situations when the public accepts it, you hear about the families having problems with it(Katherine Zeta Jones and Michael Douglas). Usually when you hear about men starting families in their 60s, 70s, and beyond, they are on a second marriage and have adult children. I can see how that would be very uncomoftable for the families (Billy Joel's wife is only 4 years older than his daughter, Paul McCartney's wife is younger than his oldest child).
So aside from who's being judgemental and who's not, I don't see how anypone can turn this into an issue of sexism.
I think it's no one's business but the woman's. It's ageist to assume that because of her age, she's too old to have a child. I think women of that age should be educated on the risks that can occur if they chose to get pregnant at that age, but other than that, I don't see a problem with it.
Personally, I think that if she really wanted a baby, it's great that she was able to have one. Men have been having children into their 80's and 90's without people getting all huffy about it for a long time.
Yes, because she's older she probably won't live as long, but who's to say that a 20 year old won't get hit by a bus tomorrow? And there are risks for anyone having a baby, whether they are young or old, conceiving by themselves or with fertility treatments.
The older you get there are more risks involved, and you are much less likely to be there for your child during the important transitional stages. However, it is her choice and I only hope the best for her.
I was more talking about the risks of certain disorders and ailments in the child (if concieved with her own egg) due to the age of the egg. I think in most events like this though, it's not the woman's own egg, but rather an implanted fertilized ovum from a donor.
a man has a child at 70 and nobody bats an eye....
I think its cool, If she was willing to take the risks and was informed of said risks thats her decision to make. Wether should could have concieved without intervention I dont know.
I dont think they should have age limits on fertility treatments, is there a minimun too?
Do you have to be 18 or can you undergdo fertility treatments with parental consent before that?
Im babbling
I personally would "bat an eye" if i heard of a 70 year old man having a child. Not because I think hes too old, just because its not something im used to hearing about or seeing. I dont deny I would be suprised. Its the same for women who are getting older too with me. So, "nobody bats an eye" minus me...
I find it interesting that when a man of say, 70 has a child with a woman who is probably younger...people will be surprised..but then think, "gee he must really want a child, he must really love kids, good for him."
But then when a woman has a child when she's older it's, "you know..she should've thought about having kids earlier...blah blah blah she's not very smart for putting it off for so long." etc. and all that shit.
When it comes to the end of this its a womens decision and NO ONE should be able to take that away! NO ONE!!
It is true that she might not be around for her whole life and then she will have to be put with a family member or foster care but that can happen to anyone. That could happen to me and I am 18 and I could get into an accident and well Andrew would have to be with someone else(ewww dont want to think about that-just trying to prove a point)
Who the hell do people think they are to try to say that someone is too old. Thats just like saying someone is too young!!
I don't think those are comparable situations.
Personally, I don't think that it is acceptable to legislate limits in either direction regarding who ought to be able to have a child. I do, however, think that this was a really bad idea. Additonally, I think that the cases mentioned in that article ragarding older men who have gone through similar procedures were bad ideas. Like it states, these parents will be in their seventies and eighties when their children are entering high school. I think that is one point in a plethora of points against the rationality, practicality and thoughtfulness of this decision. I think that technology is getting the best of us, promoting unhealthy and competitive natures wherein humans are becoming too interested in pushing the limits of what they can accomplish without enough regard for the consequences that are necessary results.
judgemental much?
My best friend in high school, her parents were 65.
They were also very loving, always there for her, very active, and her family was much more a 'family' than I could ever hope for with my own "normal aged" parents.
Who are you, who is ANYONE to judge what makes a good or bad parenting environment based on ageism?
word to naivete.
I am a human being expressing my opinion on an issue that was raised to gather opinions. I did not comment on the nature of the person, or her abilities. I do think that it was a generally bad idea, I'm sorry that it offends you. I did preface my comment with my belief that we should not be able to legislate reproductive rights, and that is how I feel. I don't think that it is out of place for me to offer my opinion, when it is requested, on any concept. I am not claiming any sort of authority thus I am not saying that I am right. But, by virtue of my species, I think and I express those thoughts. If this issue was not controversial, it would not have been raised.
I'd also like to add, that I think that this comment was uneccessary and of an attaking nature. I think that by virtue of the question that caused this thread, all comments are, generally speaking, judgements on the issue. I don't like how I have to expect to be called names when I dissent from popular opinion.
As a (hopefully!) future physician, I look at it from the doctor's point of view. I don't know if I could attempt to get a woman past menopausal age pregnant because of health risks TO THE WOMAN herself (not because of age). This is because her body is not made for making babies anymore...any type of invasive surgery or health practice (like using fertility drugs) are obviously going to take a toll on a person's body. In medical ethics, it's hard to justify doing something that may (or probably will) cause more harm to a patient (fertility drugs, cesarean section, the fact that it's hard enough for young and healthy women to heal from childbirth) than good. Also think malpractice.
This, of course, does not mean that I think there should be laws against it (which I don't think there should be at all), but that this is very risky and as a physician I probably would not do it.
Popular opinion does not mean it's okay. Prejudism and ageism is not okay in any context.
In a site that's meant for support AGAINST ageism, for a site that battles ageism and fights to prove that age does NOT play a factor, I would hope to see more open minds when it comes to the other 'extreme' on the ladder.
This:
is not a valid inferrence from what I said:
In fact, it completely twists what I was saying. My point was that my opinion dissented from the general consensus of this thread (read: the popular opinion that I was referring to) and as a result I was called judgemental. And, as you will note, I didn't like that. Thus, as I hope it now appears, I was not saying that my opinion was part of popular opinion and thus I am right, but rather that my opinion is NOT part of the popular opinion here but that does not mean that you should call me names as a result. Please don't put words in my mouth.
My comments have nothing to do with age but with health status. It would be one thing if she was still menstruating. I think it's irresponsible practicing of medicine to use in vitro and other fertility meds to help someone get pregnant who is post-menopausal. I think it's more damaging to the woman's health than doing good.
I said you were being judgemental, because you were being judgemental. This is not calling you names.
It presents me as being morally inferior. Like I said, this thread and all threads inviting opinion entail judgement (regarding an issue). Thus, I find your comment (regarding my apparantly judgemental nature) essentially pointless except for the fact that it props up your own opinion. Listen, you can argue all you want that you were entitled to characterize me like that. My point is that it was merely a tactic involving an attack to make my argument appear necessarily flawed.
I think it was a bad idea, insulting my nature is not a productive way to argue it with me. I think there are many reasons why this is a bad idea although I wholeheartedly agree that this is something that should not be legislated. Additionally, I don't think that I can say what people ought to do. I think that Erika is raising some good points for why this could be considered a bad idea (my wording), and I think that there are many more.
I think that in this situation, age does play a role. I think that there are severe health risks, among many other things. If this makes you consider me an ageist, so be it. At school, I'm called a murderer for my abortion views, and a slut for being a parent. It only serves to characterize my point as irrelevant, and it certainly is not. I dislike your tactics.
so is it possible to not be totally into the idea of a 66 year old woman having a baby, without being judgmental? that's a real question, not snarky or rhetorical. but if not, it seems like the fear of being seen as judgmental precludes any real depth of conversation. articles like this get at me much more than adhering to the position of "it's her choice, no one can say that's wrong!" would allow me to express.
i suppose i'm tired of party lines and a=b=c logic of "if you don't agree with this, you must not be prochoice/support teen moms either!", because it doesn't let any of us who might really be thinking otherwise express that, and thus we don't hear any compelling arguments against the beliefs we hold.
i'm hesitant to post anything more here, because i don't want to be added to the short list of judgmental people at girlmom.
what kind of response are we supposed to give here? i don't think it is a great idea but what is done is done. i'm going to defer to what revolt and erika have already said. i had a good friend whose father was in his 70s when she was in junior high (mom was much younger) and she hated that he couldn't do some of the things she wanted to. i'm sure we could pull out stories from both sides, you know? anecdotes don't really serve much purpose though.
i wonder about this woman's physical health. my mother is realtively healthy at 51 and i can't imagine her having a baby right now and healing quickly. i see a marked difference in her energy level now as opposed to a couple of years ago.
if she came to me tomorrow and were pregnant, i wouldn't judge her or tell her she can't or shouldn't do it, but i'd be concerned.
I understand what you are saying, vig.
I am not going to say anything negative about the woman having the child or her reasons/decision to do so, but I also would not medically help her get pregnant when I do not believe it is okay for her health-wise.
It seemed ageist because the only 'point in a plethora of points' that you offered to support the fact that it is a bad idea, was the following:
It seemed, from that, that you were questioning their parenting capability because of their age. I think a parent can offer the love and support that is needed to raise a child regardless of age. If you had offered more insight into what that meant so that I wasn't left to assume that you were questioning their parenting skills due to age, or offered more points such as Erika did about the health concerns of the woman entering pregnancy past menopause, in your argument about why it could be a bad idea than I'd agree and take it as a good point and a chance to learn more about it. The way it was worded sounded ageist, if you weren't implying that they wouldn't be good parents based solely on their age, then I wouldn't have second-guessed your post.
I meant that as "if it didn't sound as if you were implying", if you weren't implying that at all, then please, tell me.
wow. you know, its not how old they will be that matters. It's how young they will leave their children. Do you know how traumatic it is to have a parent die before you're even twenty? This woman is apt to die before her child is twelve!
That's what seems so selfish. Not because she wont be a good parent, but because there is a good possibility she wont be able to be a parent for very long. And her death will seem so untimely to her child- left all alone at twelve, thirteen? Maybe that's why women go through menapause when they do in the first place. Not just because it becomes to physically stressful for them to have kids, but because nature doesn't want these children left alone when their mothers die of old age ten years after they're born.
I'm sure this woman will make a fantastic, loving mother, for the decade or so she has left.
dancing_in_the_nude ~ That was a very good point. I don;t think it is about her being that old and not being able to parent but with her age there are health issues(could be or in the near future) and that leaves the child alone at a young age. It's not that she can't parent her correctly. But to loose a parent ever nevermind at a young age is traumatic and horrible.
I understand what your saying, but there are a lot of people who have a risk of dying in 10 years, and they still have children. Many people live beyond their 70's these days. All of my grandparents did. If she is in good enough condition to be pregnant and have a baby at that age, who's to say that she wont live until she is 80 or older?
My great grandma is 102 :)
People live a lot longer these days.
I just want to say that it makes me uncomfortable that she is having a baby at this age- for the health risks to her and to the child, as well as her ability to take care of children because of her energy level, especially as her kid gets older. Personally, I do think it is a bit selfish of her and somewhat unfair to the child. Of course it is her choice, but the younger you are, the less likely you will be to have problems. If I knew I was going to die in ten years (not saying she will), I would definitely not TTC - I think it would be selfish of me. And yes, I have been kind of afraid to explain my opinion on this subject because I have been attacked for my opinion on this board before. I would not have made this post if others hadn't already because it hurts to be attacked by everyone and labeled as "ageist" or "judgemental". It is not judgemental to have an opinion, it is judgemental to tell people that their opinion is wrong.
What bugs me is the earlier responses to this post keep saying that when older men have children, nobosy reacts negatively. I strongly disagree. When older men (rock stars, actors, tycoons) marry younger (usually beautiful) women, you always hear that she wanted money and he wanted a sexy trophy wife. I've never heard people act as though it's normal for an old man to have a baby. And even in celebrity situations when the public accepts it, you hear about the families having problems with it(Katherine Zeta Jones and Michael Douglas). Usually when you hear about men starting families in their 60s, 70s, and beyond, they are on a second marriage and have adult children. I can see how that would be very uncomoftable for the families (Billy Joel's wife is only 4 years older than his daughter, Paul McCartney's wife is younger than his oldest child).
So aside from who's being judgemental and who's not, I don't see how anypone can turn this into an issue of sexism.
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