this has been a topic that i have seen popping up lately and i want to talk about it. i see references to how single mamas "need to find love and can't because of their kids" and i hear about it in my daily life enough to make me wanna scream. everywhere i look someone at work or in my family is trying to set me up with someone.
i'm directing this at the single mamas because, well, the partnered ones are partnered, but i'm addressing the partnered mamas because i've seen comments about how being a mother makes it harder, if not impossible to "find someone to love us"
i want to call bullshit on that for a couple of reasons.
1. what is this assumption that being alone, unpartnered rather, is this horrible death sentence? i struggle a lot with the idea of being alone. one part of me fears that i will be forever, and another part of me fears getting involved in a serious relationship and what that would mean for my relationship with my son, my career, and my general lifestyle. but i don't need to be told that i have to find love to be complete. it is my inner struggle and no one else's you know?
2. this idea that as mothers we are somehow harder to love. talk about bullshit. yes, i've had dating "issues" since i had noah but i had them before i had him too. when i tell people that i have high standards i get some line about how maybe i need to lower them. excuse me?!?! no thanks. sure, i've struggled over how to tell a guy i have a son, but in the end, that is my reality. anyone that can't accept that can fuck right off. and there are assholes that will accept your child too, the ones with a "knight on a white horse" complex. they may be the worst of all.
this whole notion of "needing a man" and being a mother making it harder is totally downplaying that role we play in our future. it pisses me off that i have to come somewhere like here or even my circle of friends offline and hear it.
I understand exactly what you mean. I always have people telling me "Its okay Steph, you can still find a guy, even though you will be a mother of two soon. Theirs still some guys out there who wont mind." Wont mind?? If I was to be in a relationship (although at this point, thats not what im looking for right now), I dont want to be with a guy who wont mind that im a mother. Everyone seems to think that finding a guy will be the end to my problems, but when I was partnered, my fiance caused the majority of my problems. I'm still young and I still have my entire life ahead of me if I decide I want to be in a relationship, but right now, thats just not going to happen, and no one can seem to grasp that, ya know?
thanx for posting this vig. this is something thats been bothering me ,a lot lately. Seems like every time i turn around someones trying to introduce me to some guy and like, winking at me in the background. And i've also gotten a lot of "whens the last time you dated anyone?" lately. I wish people would just back off...it's not like I dont think about this stuff on a daily basis. I am constantly worried that I'll be single forever but really, whats so wrong with that?? And because i have serious self esteem issues, i am scared that i will take any guy who comes along. So even though it sucks and I get really lonely-I see it as a blessing too, because I know I'm not in the right place within myself to be in a relationship with anyone.
And yeah Stephanie, I totally know what you're saying. If a man says that he "doesnt mind" my kid, then he can go fuck himself. I dont want someone who "doesnt mind" my kid, I want someone who thinks she is amazing and wants to get to know her because he cares about me. I want someone who counts himself lucky to have met me *and* my daughter. Anyonewho comes into our family is going to have to do more than just accept my kid-he's going to have to love her and care about her.and I guess I can forsee problems with my high standards in the future. But I really dont see what so wrong with those standards.
sorry that was a whole lotta babbling, but its something that hits close to home.
you're so right. i found that men didn't react differently to me knowing that i had a child than before. i got asked out just as before.
i am partnered now, and my child was never an issue in that relationship. i really really hate it when people comment that i'm lucky to have found a partner who is so wonderful with my child. i'm not lucky. if he weren't wonderful with her, he wouldn't be my partner.
after having dd, and crawling my way out of a huge depression and an emotionally abusive relationship with bd, i spent a lot of time reflecting on myself. i spent less time dating/picking up men after, by my own choice, because i cut out some unhealthy behaviour of mine. however, i still did enjoy going out/flirting etc when that was what i wanted. i thought very hard on what i wanted from a relationship and set myself high standards. i didn't expect to meet anyone who'd meet those standards, i saw myself as a single mother, dating/enjoying my life on my child-free days, and never thought i'd have a serious relationship anytime soon. when i did meet my partner though, i was able to build a strong and healthy relationship with him that i'm sure i couldn't have had before.
I completely agree with you Vig. Especially your points one and two. I'm really proud that I can stand on my own two feet. I feel confident, strong and capable with a baby on my hip and taking charge. Any man would be lucky to get with me.
On the other hand, and maybe this isn't the thread to be doing this in because I know what stereotypes and comments your addressing, I find it really hard to date. I know I don't need a man to make me complete but on the other hand I am lonely and I do want a partner. And I have dating issues and I find that when I'm stuck with 100 percent of the parenting responsibility and I'm so busy out there kicking ass for myself and my family, those dating issues and the amount of energy and time it would take to get over them just seems like insurmountable obstacles right now. And that makes me sad. I guess I just wish some of those stereotypes and comments weren't out there because maybe if they weren't we could be more open and honest about the hardships without feeling like we're betraying the superwoman part of ourselves.
Yes, I really agree with all of you. It is a requirement that any partner like me, not in spite of my child, but with every part that makes me up, child incuded. I could never settle with anyone who could just deal with my child. Then again, who wouldn't want to hang with my kid. Anyone who is in her presence is lucky, but I may be a bit biased.
I always get that, "Go out with him he doesn't mind that you have a kid.." speech. If I wouldn't be interested pre-baby, why should I be now? In fact, I'm more picky now because my time is much more limited. I'm not getting a babysitter for just anyone who asks me out whereas pre-baby, I would go out with alot of losers because I felt bad.
I do completely understand the concerns of wanting a partner. I definitely would like to be in a real relationship at some point in the future, but not for my kid. Is it too much to ask to be able to enter into an adult relationship on my own terms and thinking primarily about my satisfaction?
no kidding! i want a partner eventually. right now , with all the plans i have for my career and whatnot there is no way i could make time for a relationship. but in the future it would be nice. there have been times i feel like a sell-out for feeling that way and i think that sucks too.
not too much at all. it is the same idea as us maintaining our own identities when we become mothers. adult relationships are just that, our ADULT relationships. of course we have to take into account our kids, but we don't have to latch on to the first guy that comes our way like it is some consolation prize or something.
I so agree with you. I hope to eventually find a partner, when I'm ready to let someone into my life again. But I would be doing it for myself, primarily, because I felt ready to have a partner in my life. Of course I will take into consideration how the person responded to my son, because Malik IS a HUGE part of my life, but I wouldn't be out "fishing for a father" for Malik- no.
I wanna talk more about this but I'm pressed for time- I'll post some more tonight.
Good topic!
I briefly dated a male a friend who said that because I had a kid already, he couldn't fully love me like he could a girl without a kid. He didn't want to be a father to someone elses kid and he wants to experience making a family with someone who hasn't already experienced it.
Needless to say that relationship didn't last long and we no longer speak to each other, but it was doomed from the start. What he said really bothered me because it inferred that as a mother, I was used and somehow that makes me not as worthy of his affection as a girl with no kids. It also pissed me off that he assumed I would want him to be a father to my son. Never was that my intention. Oh well, if he thinks like that it wouldn't never have worked between us. I just don't get why he wasted my time dating me knowing I was a mother.
Suzaan , that's awful. I'm sorry- that guy sounds like an asshole. You're obviously better off without someone like him in your life.
I recieved a message in my inbox from vig, and part of it read, "... there was a comment you made about how it is so hard for single mothers to "find love". ... think about how hurtful those words can be."
I was also directed to come read this.
Well, unfortunately, vig, this thread touches little on my point. The only relevant statement made in connection with my previous post is, "... i'm addressing the partnered mamas because i've seen comments about how being a mother makes it harder, if not impossible to 'find someone to love us'"
For any that have no idea what I'm talking about, let me explain. There was a thread where a very young girl found out she was pregnant and was asking advice on whether or not to have an abortion. Apparently the thread was deleted b/c of "offensive language" to which I say that I hope the girl was able to get from it what she needed before it was deleted because of a few cuss words. Anyway, in this thread I went into much that she should consider before making her decision. One of several points--and one I started off by saying is something many people avoid talking about as to not offend anyone--is that, basically, a lot of men turn from women who have children.
Is that to say they all do? No. I made no comments that it was impossible to find love. I did, however, encourage her to take into consideration that that might be something she would have to deal with, and to consider how she would be able to deal with it. Also, considering her age, your first point becomes somewhat moot. She's not had a chance to really experience love, and while it's not a certain thing, it's probable that she's REALLY going to want to date in her teen years.
So, while you may take offense to my statement and want me to read this and consider just how hurtful my words can be, I encourage you to stop and think about the point I was making. At (I believe) 13, regardless of whether or not attention should be spent looking for love while caring for a baby, the urge will almost certainly be there. And chances are, she wouldn't have a lot of guys her age ready and willing to build a relationship with those circumstances.
Also take note that I told her she should have the baby if she thought through all the things I had presented to her and she felt she could handle all of the responsibility and stresses, including the possibility that dating and relationships would be more difficult considering.
1. the thread was not removed because of "a couple of cuss words". the thread was removed because it contained a lot of very triggering and unsafe comments in respect to the community we have here. i never said it was deleted because of your comments. just so you are clear
2. i really wish the thread was here so you could read the words that myself and other single mamas wrote to you. of course having a child means some men will not want to date you. so will being "too tall", "too fat", not having a good enough job, or whatever. there is a reason that we don't talk about shit like that here, because the way in which that sentiment has been presented to us, actual single mothers, is that we are somehow lesser off due to our having a child.
what i am trying to address in this thread is the fallacies with this line of thinking. especially in light of the fact that this community is in existence largely as a safe space for mamas that are marginalized due to not only age, but also sexual preference, marital status, income level, etc. we are trying to put the message out there that it is okay to be single, but we are also addressing in this thread, in practically every comment in it, that of course feeling those urges for sex and/or love is normal and okay.
let's face it, there are shitty people out there. we shouldn't have to come here and read the underlying message that because we have a kid we are somehow unworthy of a man's love (i'm gonna leave out the inherent heterosexism in this as well - for the sake of the argument here). i know that you aren't explicitly saying that, but the line of thinking this leads to implies that message. as a partnered mama, who i believe has been partnered the whole time you have been a mama, i don't expect you to understand that. i do, however, expect you to respect that.
i intended to respond to your pm, but since you decided to bring the contents of mine to this post i'll leave it here.
The thread wasn't deleted because of "a few cuss words"--it was removed from the main boards because it was full of language that violated our mission statement and site's policies.
I agree with Vig's posts here, and I encourage you to re-read them and try to get where she and others are coming from. The last thing a single mom or single pregnant girl needs is to come to a site designed to support young marginalized parents only to read that they will never "get a man" with a kid (as though that should be the ultimate goal for everyone). There are lots of factors to take into consideration when deciding what to do about a pregnancy, of course. However, a partnered mom telling a single pregnant girl that she may not be able to find any guys who will accept her with a baby in tow just rubs the wrong way.
First to vig: 1. What is the language that you refer to when talking about the thread being deleted? Because you're cussing in your post here. I'm confused on that.
2. I didn't say that having a child made you less of anything. My point is that young men aren't ready and/or willing to help raise a child. It has nothing to do with a girl/woman's standing in society. It has to do with responsibility required to care for and properly influence a developing child, and the lack of it in young men along with the lack of interest to attempt such a task.
4 (as in your 4th paragraph). I didn't have any underlying message. It was straight forward and to the point. And that point said nothing about not being worthy of a man because of motherhood. As for the heterosexism, what are you talking about? Is it wrong to assume that a 13-year-old who is PREGNANT might be interested in men? My mistake.
And for the comment, "... as a partnered mama, who i believe has been partnered the whole time you have been a mama ...", you don't know me. I shouldn't have to go into great detail about my experiences. But I speak from experience. I know what it's like to be early 20s and be rejected by men for being a mother. I'm happily married now, but it shouldn't be assumed that it's always been the case.
Last, I brought your message in here because I feel like it's something that needs to be discussed by more than just you and I because from what you're saying there are many ladies here who are misunderstanding and/or are offended by my words.
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As for your comments, jen, apparenlty you not only didn't read the post I made in the deleted thread, but you didn't read my post in here either. I suggest you re-read my first post in here to see where I am coming from because every single word of your statement, [1] "they will never "get a man" with a kid [2] (as though that should be the ultimate goal for everyone). [3] There are lots of factors to take into consideration when deciding what to do about a pregnancy, of course. [4] However, a partnered mom telling a single pregnant girl that she may not be able to find any guys who will accept her with a baby in tow just rubs the wrong way.", shows that you have no idea what point I'm making.
I think I was pretty clear in my statements (Note the numbers in brackets in both your statements and mine are to show my specific responses to each comment):
~~
No matter how much of this I read, I will never take on the opinion that it's better to sugar coat everything in an attempt to be supportive. She asked for advice on whether or not to have an abortion. I didn't tell her that she would never get a man. I simply informed her that it was possible that it would be much more difficult. It's a reality. Seriously think about how many adolecsent males are interested--much less ready--to help raise a child. You can attack me all day, but it won't change the fact that you're holding out on a reality in an attempt to be supportive.
I gave her facts. I told her the way things could be for her if she did have a child. Things she needed to take into consideration. At no point did I force an opinion on her. And at no point did I, nor would I ever, hold back a truth for the simple fact that it might stir up some emotion. Like I told her, this decision doesn't affect only her. The baby has to be the top priority. And that was a large part of that particular point.
Like I said, I did start out that particular paragraph stating that it was something everyone here seemed to avoid for whatever reason. Next time I'll put *trigger* at the start of paragraphs I think might cause someone to be offended or hurt. But the point is, you ladies are attacking me as if I have no compassion and am unaware of what it's really like and just making assumptions without care to anyone's emotions. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have taken the time and put forth the effort to type out such a detailed post to her. I covered several issues and was very careful to not push my opinion one way or the other. Nor would I go to so much trouble to make the posts I have in this thread to further explain my point and to keep others from thinking I've made the statements you two keep turning around and altering then claiming are mine.
In closing, because of one statement you don't agree with (or are in denial about), you accuse me of being inconsiderate and stepping out of my bounds into a subject I know nothing about. COMPELTELY ignoring every other statement made in the same post AND changing my statements around to say things that ARE NOT my opinions. I have just as much right as the next person to give advice when it's requested. If you don't agree with or don't understand my point, by all means, counterpoint it. But don't take my words out of context and accuse me of things based off of assumptions. It's disrespectful. And it's hypocritical from someone demanding respect.
I kno this wasnt directed to me, but i just wanted to clear something up. It WASNT cussing. It was anti woman language. BIG difference. I know that you have been told numerous times that it wasnt just cussing. Just wanted to clear that up
Really? Because there have been two posts. One said that it wasn't "a few cuss words" and the other said that it had to do with triggering and unsafe comments.
2 is not numerous. Regardless, I still have no idea what comments they're talking about. I'm just aware that they weren't my comments. Thanks, however, for jumping on the flamewagon.
Flame wagon? I was just letting you know, because you made it clear that you didnt. I didnt see any "flaming" going on.
In implying that I've been told... not even implying-- In stating that I've been told NUMEROUS times that it wasn't cussing, when in actuality I've been told really only once, considering the other response could be taken as it WAS something to do with cussing, you're basically doing the same thing they are. You're giving other people the wrong impression of me. And I don't appreciate it.
They are taking my words out of context and making statements that aren't what I said, then attacking me over them. APPARENTLY giving other ladies here the impression that I'm on a mission to make teenage girls who are pregnant feel like having a child is the end of their love life for the rest of forever. You are giving out the impression that I'm not paying attention or... whatever.
I apologize for getting defensive. Maybe you weren't trying to come off as a rider on the hate train, but your misuse of the word numerous made it appear so.
I've been thinking about this thread a bit- and seeing the debates happening makes it even more interesting.
I have never had a problem finding someone to date- men or women- before or after my pregnancy. I have had two men turn me down because of my kid, but I had men turn me down because I had brown hair, or was to loud, to left wing, etc. etc. before I was pregnant.
I have *not* found being a mom makes dating harder, at all. I keep my relationships separate from Zoe, and until I"ve been dating someone for a long time, they dont' really get to hang out with her. I make it clear to people that I do date that I'm not looking for a "parent replacement".
I understand the desire to have someone to parent with, but I don't think that anyone doesn't have that person BECAUSE they have a kid (I know, without the kid you wouldn't need someone, but without the kid- would you want to date that person- does that make sense?). And, I totally see the need for someone to date for YOU, but I think, and this is JUST from my personal experience, that it's not that much harder afterwards than beforehand.
I don't think that your "ability" to date is something that should be taken into consideration when deciding to keep a fetus or not. If it doesn't happen rightnow, it will happen later on down the line a bit. I don't understand why it is something that would be important enough to take into consideration.
And, a pregnant 13 year old is absolutly, most definitly, not always going to be straite (just a side note).
Nobody is attacking you. I read your posts in both threads, and what I typed above is what I felt like I got from what you typed. I just don't understand why the ability to find a man should be a top priority when someone is deciding whether or not to terminate a pregnancy.
Vig, I apologize for derailing this thread. Thanks for posting this.
In my experience, as a girl who got pregnant at 16, I had been turned down for a date, because I was a mom, however, like Kat said, I have also been turned down because I didnt have the right hair color, was too loud, not skinny enough...etc etc. It didnt really affect me all the much because Im still young and I have my whole life ahead of me to date, I dont necessarily need to do it right now. KWIM? Besides, if a guy will turn me down bcus im a mom, then thats a blessing cause thats not the kind of guy I want anyways.
lara, i apologize for assuming anything about your partnered status. i did say, "i believe" as i don't know all about you, it is just what i had gleaned from your other posts. as a formerly single mama, i am now assuming i would love to hear your insights and experiences.
i'm also sorry you feel like i am attacking you. this thread wasn't all about you and what you said in another thread. yes, your comments were some of what i was talking about but in the OP i specifically said that this is something i hear often and from many people in my life. i can't speak for anyone else on this board's level of offense at what you said.
when i pointed you to this thread in PMs i simply asked that you read it. i hadn't intended for it to get sidetracked to what it is now, but rather that single mamas talk about it, including formerly single mamas.
i am not in denial. i am not sugarcoating anything. my point has been and still is that this is not a message that i feel has a place on a feminist website. my issue with the message is that it vicitmizes us further as mothers, especially young, single mothers.
i don't believe anyone here is putting words in your mouth. surely you can understand that so many of the larger societal messages that we fight against here have directly effected our outlooks. what i tried to get across to you is that this is what i heard reinforced in your words. there are a lot of things that we all say that mean more than the actual words based on our experiences. this is what i am trying to address here.
The reason I brought this out of the pm is because you implied, and later stated, that my words had offended many. Considering they were misunderstood I felt it was necessary to further explain my point in hopes of clearing the air with anyone who may have been offended.
I felt like I was being attacked considering my words were being taken out of context and my point being skewed. Not only that but when "... let's face it, there are shitty people out there. we shouldn't have to come here and read the underlying message that because we have a kid we are somehow unworthy of a man's love ..." is directed to you, it's hard not to feel attacked. Thanks for calling me shitty because of my point of view from personal experience, and all apologies for taking it as a flame.
I've had guys be totally into me until I told them about Laila. I realize some guys didn't want to go out with me because I was too skinny or because of my glasses or my non-existant boobs (aka my bobs) or whatever. But that's different than when you meet a guy and spend some time with him, know that he's really into you then get rejected instantly at the mention of a child. It's painful and it's something I felt that girl should consider ESPECIALLY considering her age and the way everyone feels at that age when it comes to wanting love (from boys or girls). When it's your hair or your weight, the guys generally just don't approach you, or end it quick when you approach them. I don't know about everyone else, but for me, it's not obvious that I'm a mom without saying something. It's also not something I let out right away, ya know? Like, "Hi, I'm Lara and a mother!". That's awkward.
Anyway, that was my point. And while I can undestand the comparison to weight and hair color and all that, I still view it as different. It's a different rejection. It's a No after a Yes instead of a straight up No. And, for me, that's more difficult. Also, it's an extra thing. Yea, I get that all those physical things are there, but this is another thing. Ya know? In addition to the rest.
I'm not trying to trigger anything for anyone or bring anyone down. I was pointing out something that I feel is relevant.
see when i said shitty i meant the people that are out there saying, pointblank, that mothers should be grateful for anyone that will take them. it is those shitty people that i come here to get away from and when i hear someone here, in what i consider a safe space, furthering those messages even though that wasn't the intent i get my hackles raised.
i've had guys not date me because of noah, i've had guys not date me because i'm to left-leaning in my beliefs, i've had guys not date me because i don't sit back and take shit. all of that is stuff they find out over time (altho, i'll admit that i find a way to work noah into a conversation subtely, but early so i can let them know at the front)
i guess the issue that i had, and i think at least a couple of other people had were summed better by katg when she said
okay, i need to go to bed now
"I don't think that your "ability" to date is something that should be taken into consideration when deciding to keep a fetus or not. If it doesn't happen rightnow, it will happen later on down the line a bit. I don't understand why it is something that would be important enough to take into consideration. "
i've been wondering how to put this into words...let me preface this with saying that i didn't find that portion of lara's post offensive, because i didn't think it was insulting to single mothers, a group i don't currently belong to but have in the past.
i'm uncomfortable with the above statement, because who are we to decide what should be taken into consideration or not? who are we to decide what's important? is it even ours to understand or not understand why someone considers that, or chooses an abortion because of it? that hits too close to deciding what's an okay reason to have an abortion, because there are women out there who have chosen abortion because they were worried about never finding love again. if we act like that shouldn't be important, aren't we saying that she had an abortion for an unimportant or trivial reason?
personally, i'd rather give someone all the information that was true for me, whether other people have personally experienced it or approved of my saying it or not. it's not for me to decide that something is too unimportant to tell someone, because it may well make the difference for them. we could take almost anything and stick it in that quote up there, but the ones that would sound right to some people wouldn't sound right to others, so maybe that shouldn't be a criteria for what we say to women considering abortion or single motherhood.
alli wants to chime in here and say that worries about never finding someone to love or love here as a sixteen year old mother were a big part in why she stayed with her abusive BD for so long. so this was a concern for her and didn't seem unimportant at all. she also wants to remind us that pregnancies at 13, or 15 in her case, can be very different than pregnancies at 18, 19, 20.
The issue I had with that wasn't the idea of that statement, but the fact that the original poster didn't mention that being a concern, and Lara seemed to assume that it would be. I realize that she was just trying to paint a complete picture of what pregnancy and life w/ a baby would be like, and I apologize if I overstepped any boundaries as a partnered/older mom.
well, i think this is no longer a healthy conversation for me to be in. the original post currently being discussed isn't even in here and i had initially started this as a larger conversation and i'm no longer interested in the back and forth. i need to step out of it. carry on whomever needs to, i can't talk about the realities of dating and single mamahood in this countext though.
I understand how you want to inform people of realities, and I commend that. However, I think that the point that many are trying to convey is that people in that girl's position, and in many of our own positions, WILL get that information day in and day out just by being visible in society. The message that is usually conveyed here is that yeah, things will be fucking hard but it's not as impossible as society makes it seem, to find happiness, no matter what your circumstances. Women KNOW that with a kid many will not be interested. What they need to be told is that not every potential partner will be a judgemental ass.
Our choices cannot be reliant on what other people may or may not do, how they may or may not act. We are responsible for only ourselves and our (potential) children. I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that because that reality isn't brought up at this site, that's she not going to figure it out. It's not brought up here because it's likely all that she'll hear elsewhere and our point is that 1) You don't NEED anyone else and 2)You deserve someone who will love you completely, should you choose to pursue a relationship, and that is NOT impossible, nor completely unlikely.
vig, i think the initial post was a really good topic, and it's clear from the responses that several other mamas thought so too. perhaps the drama about the old thread can be put to bed and this thread can continue on with the conversation that was happening with the first page?
I think that's it completely. In my opinion part of being an empowered woman is doing what's right for YOU because it's right for YOU. I think all too often society tells us to base our decision on the man we're either currently with or the one we might hope for in the future. It's like a little patriarchy injection in our decision making process. blah...